Ar low -high end?

[Tommyh]

Tommy, the US govt also goes with what's the CHEAPEST. Why do you think they went with Beretta over Sig for their sidearm? Beretta doesn't even hold a candle to Sig but Beretta was cheaper, therefore they got the contract.

There are a ton of police agencies that use RRA, S&W, BM as their primary patrol/entry rifles. Do you think they are concerned that their rifle isn't on the chart? I wasn't. I knew my gun had an excellent reputation and you can feel quality in your hand when you're holding it, that RRA Entry Tac was a bad SOB. I never had any failures with the rifle whatsoever. I ran it through a 3 day patrol rifle class and it performed flawlessly. So did the Sig 556, Bushmaster, and S&W M&P, not even a hiccup. I don't think Colt walks on water and anyone who thinks Colt hasn't had or isn't as capable of having a failure on any part of the weapon, well you're fooling yourself. Anything mechanical can fail. I think Colt makes an excellent gun, but I don't think everyone else is complete garbage.

I'm sorry but your last paragraph is just wrong, period. I got quality, precision (guaranteed 1MOA), and I did depend on that gun for my life. I'm not typing this to argue with you, I just hate to see a person new to the AR's be misled into thinking that Colt is God and the rest are junk. Then you've got some guy who just bought a brand new X and he thinks his new gun is junk.

Had another rifle meet the criteria for tdp and cheaper than colt, yes it might have gotten chosen. Whether your life depended on it in dust, mud, lack of maintenance, etc, it had a higher possibility of failing before the top tier would have. They all break down at some point, but the question comes in to play of when and how often.

Think the bushie is all that and a bag of chips? Please re read the article listed in the link below to see how up to par it is.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_campaign=55fe0250f8-1%2F20%2F13-+NewsletterList&utm_medium=email

[Ecoboost]

There are a total of like 7 companies making all of these parts.... Your a fool if you pay extra for a colt! JMHO! You buy a newer colt you pay extra for the name... They sell the same crap everyone else is selling! Don't believe me look at a Colt 6900! No dust cover or forward assist just like the DPMS sportical or the M&P sport! 99% of the people buying ANY AR15 will never use it enough to even matter! As long as you don't buy a new frontier or similar lower with a plastic trigger group you will be just fine!

[Tommyh]

There are a total of like 7 companies making all of these parts.... Your a fool if you pay extra for a colt! JMHO! You buy a newer colt you pay extra for the name... They sell the same crap everyone else is selling! Don't believe me look at a Colt 6900! No dust cover or forward assist just like the DPMS sportical or the M&P sport! 99% of the people buying ANY AR15 will never use it enough to even matter! As long as you don't buy a new frontier or similar lower with a plastic trigger group you will be just fine!

Close for lowers.

Here's a list I found on Hawaii's 2A site:

These are the 9 machine shops that make most of the lowers in the US.

Lewis Machine & Tool

LMT
Lauer
DS Arms
PWA
Eagle
Armalite
Knights Armament
Barrett


Continental Machine Tool

Stag
Rock River Arms
High Standard
Noveske
Century (New)
Global Tactical
CLE
S&W
MGI
Wilson Tactical
Grenadier Precision
Colt


LAR Manufacturing (85% of the industry)

LAR
Bushmaster
Ameetec
DPMS
CMMG
Double Star
Fulton Armory
Spike's Tactical


JVP

Double Star
LRB
Charles Daly


Mega Machine Shop

Mega
GSE
Dalphon
POF
Alexander Arms


Olympic

Olympic
SGW
Tromix
Palmetto
Dalphon
Frankford
Century (Old)


Sun Devil

Sun Devil forged billet receivers


Superior

Superior Arms
Lauer (New)


Aero Precision

Aero Precision
Surplus Ammo and Arms
Palmetto State Armory


-------------------------------------
The above list contains the machine companies that machine the raw forgings into usable receivers. Each individual company applies their own finishing standards.

A (splintered) = Anchor Harvey Aluminum
AF = Alcoa Forge
C AF = Colt Alco Forge
C MB = Colt / Mueller Brass
Cardinal (stylized) = Cardinal Forge
CH = Colt Harvey Aluminum
CK = Colt / Kaiser Aluminum
Circle/Crooshairs w/"AR" = ArmaLite
CM = Colt / Martin Marietta
D (stylized) = Diemaco
DK = Diemaco / Kaiser Aluminum
E = Emco
EK = EMCO/Kaiser
E MB = EMCO/Mueller Brass
F keyhole = FNMI / Cerro Forge
FA = FNMI / Anchor Harvey
FK = FNMI / Kaiser Aluminum
FM = FN/Martin Marietta
FMB = FNMI / Mueller Brass
Keyhole = Cerro Forge
L = Lewis Machine & Tool
LK = LAR / Kaiser Aluminum
LM = LAR / Martin Marietta
M (under diamond) = Mueller Industries
PA = Capco / Anchor Harvey
PM = Capco / Martin Marietta


barrels are all built differently, and to meet tdp, have to have a special metal composition. Testing of bbl inidifually, batch testing, not testing, all make a difference. Dpms bbl wont be as good as rra bbl wont be as good as colt bbl.

Rra loktites all screws and castle nut.

Lpks are different hardness grind fit/finish.

Bolts are high pressure tested, mpi for cracks/flwas on tier one rifles. Each one, not batch or not at all.

Dpms is one of the worst built AR15 on the market, only in front of vulcan/hess/blackthorne in quality. And craftsmanship.


They are not the same.

[Daniel75]

Had another rifle meet the criteria for tdp and cheaper than colt, yes it might have gotten chosen. Whether your life depended on it in dust, mud, lack of maintenance, etc, it had a higher possibility of failing before the top tier would have. They all break down at some point, but the question comes in to play of when and how often.

Think the bushie is all that and a bag of chips? Please re read the article listed in the link below to see how up to par it is.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bras...m_medium=email

Tommy, enlighten me: that link is to 4 identical Bushmasters firing 4 different types of ammo and what their malfunctions were. Federal, Wolf, Brown Bear and another one. The Bushmaster firing only Federal fired 10,000 rounds without a single malfunction. Why? Because they used quality ammo. Even the Wolf only had less than 20, which the writers of the article stated that came out to 99.97% reliability. And that's firing JUNK ammo, which Wolf is. I'm not sure how that proved your point of BM being subpar. I'd like to see the same test with 4 Colts being used with the same ammo and see if they have 100% reliability with all 4 brands of ammo. Do you have that test?

[lesson 101]

Tommy, enlighten me: that link is to 4 identical Bushmasters firing 4 different types of ammo and what their malfunctions were. Federal, Wolf, Brown Bear and another one. The Bushmaster firing only Federal fired 10,000 rounds without a single malfunction. Why? Because they used quality ammo. Even the Wolf only had less than 20, which the writers of the article stated that came out to 99.97% reliability. And that's firing JUNK ammo, which Wolf is. I'm not sure how that proved your point of BM being subpar. I'd like to see the same test with 4 Colts being used with the same ammo and see if they have 100% reliability with all 4 brands of ammo. Do you have that test?

x2 thats what I saw and read but didnt want to say anything incase I misunderstood it. Thanks for clarifying that. 10,000 rounds and not one malfunction with a quality ammo is pretty impressive to me but Ill never shoot that many rounds in a lifetime unlesss the zombie apocolypse does come around. Then im using good ammo to outlast them brain suckers!!!

[Jp.]

Ok I was going to stay out of this but
I know up to "at least 2008" the tdp was suppose to be a guarded secret that obvisouly the federal goverment had and per the contracts only Colt and FN had and it was part of the contract to keep super secret.. And for any one else to claim a tdp class gun it had to reverse engineer one of these guns and then it really wasnt tdp cause of mfg. tolerance differences.
Just asking but,

What year was the tdp release to the public so to speak?

As I understand it the federal gov., Colt and FN set the tdp specs. so of coarse they will say and show that all others dont match the tdp requirements and keep that nice contract...

And to be clear, I like Colts just fine and have shot quite a few....

[Jp.]

Anyone like Bravo Company?
I know its from 2005 but is a good read.

http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=557

[Mike D]

Anyone like Bravo Company?
I know its from 2005 but is a good read.
http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/ind...?showtopic=557

BCM is good to go.

[Ecoboost]

I don't dislike colt... I own them! I'm just saying they are not that much better than all other brands out there. People that will only buy colt need to atleast know what the differences are before spending extra cash for a so called top tier AR15...

BCM is a better than colt IMO! You get more for your money!

[Bily Lovec]

you just dont get it.
two of the four bushys came from the factory improperly assemblied.
thats 50% failure

Ive shot several thousand rounds of junk ammo out of quality ARs w/o any malfunctions.

Tommy, enlighten me: that link is to 4 identical Bushmasters firing 4 different types of ammo and what their malfunctions were. Federal, Wolf, Brown Bear and another one. The Bushmaster firing only Federal fired 10,000 rounds without a single malfunction. Why? Because they used quality ammo. Even the Wolf only had less than 20, which the writers of the article stated that came out to 99.97% reliability. And that's firing JUNK ammo, which Wolf is. I'm not sure how that proved your point of BM being subpar. I'd like to see the same test with 4 Colts being used with the same ammo and see if they have 100% reliability with all 4 brands of ammo. Do you have that test?

x2 thats what I saw and read but didnt want to say anything incase I misunderstood it. Thanks for clarifying that. 10,000 rounds and not one malfunction with a quality ammo is pretty impressive to me but Ill never shoot that many rounds in a lifetime unlesss the zombie apocolypse does come around. Then im using good ammo to outlast them brain suckers!!!

[Bily Lovec]

colt developed and owns the TDP, they lease it to FN and others depending on .mil contracts.
FN "accidently" released it a few years ago, its never been offically released to the public, but its out there.

This is the reason FN cannot sell certain AR parts or assemblied ARs in the USA.

keep in mind, not even colt follows the TDP 100%, they make improvements to their product without telling anyone.

the TDP is minimum requirements, its possible to make something better, some companies like DPMS, RRA, Bushy chose to not meet even the minimal steel spec requirements of the TDP by choosing substandard material.

Ok I was going to stay out of this but
I know up to "at least 2008" the tdp was suppose to be a guarded secret that obvisouly the federal goverment had and per the contracts only Colt and FN had and it was part of the contract to keep super secret.. And for any one else to claim a tdp class gun it had to reverse engineer one of these guns and then it really wasnt tdp cause of mfg. tolerance differences.
Just asking but,

What year was the tdp release to the public so to speak?

As I understand it the federal gov., Colt and FN set the tdp specs. so of coarse they will say and show that all others dont match the tdp requirements and keep that nice contract...

And to be clear, I like Colts just fine and have shot quite a few....

[Daniel75]

you just dont get it.
two of the four bushys came from the factory improperly assemblied.
thats 50% failure

Ive shot several thousand rounds of junk ammo out of quality ARs w/o any malfunctions.

I read that part, where is the same test performed with a Colt? You can't do an apples to apples comparison without putting the Colt through the same punishment and seeing how it does. Admittedly, I would not be happy if I bought an AR and had to to tighten a ring around the barrel to get it to shoot right. I'll give you that.

[okrattler]

If you're out shooting thousands of rounds every week and don't clean your rifle after you're done (most people aren't doing that) or if find yourself in situations where your life depends on your rifle on a regular basis it might not be a bad idea to drop the extra coin on a Colt,LaRau Tactical or LWRC.

If you're gonna be shooting 100 holes through a piece of paper at the range when you finally find ammo (most people are) the "lower end" rifles like DPMS or Bushmaster will work just fine for that.If you clean them on a regular basis you shouldn't have any malfunctions or any reason to bad mouth them for not having a pony stamped on them instead of a snake or panther.

[Mike D]

If you're out shooting thousands of rounds every week and don't clean your rifle after you're done (most people aren't doing that) or if find yourself in situations where your life depends on your rifle on a regular basis it might not be a bad idea to drop the extra coin on a Colt,LaRau Tactical or LWRC.

If you're gonna be shooting 100 holes through a piece of paper at the range when you finally find ammo (most people are) the "lower end" rifles like DPMS or Bushmaster will work just fine for that.If you clean them on a regular basis you shouldn't have any malfunctions or any reason to bad mouth them for not having a pony stamped on them instead of a snake or panther.

For the most part, you are correct.

What gets under my skin is the folks that say my brand whatever rifle is just as good or better than a Colt, et al, and you are only paying for the name and that's simply not true.

[Jp.]

colt developed and owns the TDP, they lease it to FN and others depending on .mil contracts.
FN "accidently" released it a few years ago, its never been offically released to the public, but its out there.

This is the reason FN cannot sell certain AR parts or assemblied ARs in the USA.

keep in mind, not even colt follows the TDP 100%, they make improvements to their product without telling anyone.

the TDP is minimum requirements, its possible to make something better, some companies like DPMS, RRA, Bushy chose to not meet even the minimal steel spec requirements of the TDP by choosing substandard material.

Thanks for some clarity on that Bily, I researched kinda hurriedly and saw some real interesting things. I did like the person from Bravo Companies explanation on some of this. That is the reason I posted his comments from the other form.