Bernie Sanders is going to kill this country, given a chance

[ttechdallas]

Obamacare is not a failure because it is socialism. It is a failure because it was dishonestly conceived, SOLD, designed and implemented by an absolutely dishonest president and administration. And it was accomplished by misrepresenting both the problem and the solution.

The success of a solution is tied to how accurately the problem is defined - not whether it leans right or left. The more we define problems based on who we blame for them, the greater the failure.

[Theodore]

So what you are saying is it's a matter of perspective. If you view it as being forced upon you, it's socialism, but if you agree with it, it's not.

...I am okay with paying the taxes to have...

Rat, I have a lot of respect and appreciation for you, but I disagree with you on this one. It really seems like perspective is what's defining which services that can and cannot be considered forms of socialism. One's ability to be "okay with" certain societal elements being taxpayer funded does not make them any less of a form of socialism. People choosing to mandate a service that is funded by taxes is people choosing socialism. Because they are removing the private payer system and force all others (who may not want these services) to also pay, it is a form of socialism.

Paying taxes or having them forcibly taken from you does not distinguish between socialism and a capitalist economy. Sorry, it simply doesn't.

We accept public schools and civil servants because that's what we're accustomed to here. These public services were not always taxpayer funded. And they would have been considered forms of socialism when they were taken over by the government. Simply because generally speaking we accept that these are necessary for our society doesn't make them any less than socialized education and socialized emergency responders. We do not all pull equally from public schools. I have been paying for schools for decades and I do not have a child in one. I'm paying for something I'm not receiving but others are receiving goods from this service--socialism.

We did have a choice when it came to partially socialized medicine and the country chose to elect someone to the presidency twice. He told us that was his plan and the country elected him knowing it. There. We had our say. I don't like it, I didn't vote for him, but my side didn't win.

I understand that simply because the government finances something it isn't automatically socialism, but when the funding it derived solely from taxes and it is a service/opportunity afforded to all persons residing within the boundaries of a government entity, it is a form of socialism. When a group of persons by choice or by force pool resources to fund something of interest, it is a form of socialism.

Socialism isn't a binary system. There are different levels and socialism. And we have, for decades, accepted varying levels of socialism in this country.

And as for the "greatest generation," give me a break. They didn't accept taxpayer anything? That's an outright absurd statement. I appreciate the "greatest generation" for what they did right, but let's not act like the U.S. was some perfect wonderland that is now being wrecked. We're all humans and we all make mistakes and some folks also tend to make something out of themselves but they aren't infallible.

[Rat]

Rat, I have a lot of respect and appreciation for you, but I disagree with you on this one. It really seems like perspective is what's defining which services that can and cannot be considered forms of socialism. One's ability to be "okay with" certain societal elements being taxpayer funded does not make them any less of a form of socialism. People choosing to mandate a service that is funded by taxes is people choosing socialism. Because they are removing the private payer system and force all others (who may not want these services) to also pay, it is a form of socialism.

Paying taxes or having them forcibly taken from you does not distinguish between socialism and a capitalist economy. Sorry, it simply doesn't.

We accept public schools and civil servants because that's what we're accustomed to here. These public services were not always taxpayer funded. And they would have been considered forms of socialism when they were taken over by the government. Simply because generally speaking we accept that these are necessary for our society doesn't make them any less than socialized education and socialized emergency responders. We do not all pull equally from public schools. I have been paying for schools for decades and I do not have a child in one. I'm paying for something I'm not receiving but others are receiving goods from this service--socialism.

We did have a choice when it came to partially socialized medicine and the country chose to elect someone to the presidency twice. He told us that was his plan and the country elected him knowing it. There. We had our say. I don't like it, I didn't vote for him, but my side didn't win.

I understand that simply because the government finances something it isn't automatically socialism, but when the funding it derived solely from taxes and it is a service/opportunity afforded to all persons residing within the boundaries of a government entity, it is a form of socialism. When a group of persons by choice or by force pool resources to fund something of interest, it is a form of socialism.

Socialism isn't a binary system. There are different levels and socialism. And we have, for decades, accepted varying levels of socialism in this country.

And as for the "greatest generation," give me a break. They didn't accept taxpayer anything? That's an outright absurd statement. I appreciate the "greatest generation" for what they did right, but let's not act like the U.S. was some perfect wonderland that is now being wrecked. We're all humans and we all make mistakes and some folks also tend to make something out of themselves but they aren't infallible.

Are you saying that no matter what, if we pay taxes and that tax money is used for a government program it is socialism? That isn't how it works...

If I give $20 at church for my church to help people in need it isn't socialism, it's altruistic. If they hold a gun to my head and FORCE me to give $20 when I don't want to it's socialism... That's a broad stroke but you get the idea.

Again, I'm okay with my money being used for social programs run by the government that have not been forced on the tax payer, that isn't socialism.

I get your point about it being socialistic in nature, but in reality it is just a government program run amok, bloated and used by politicians to garner favor and votes; it's not really socialism as defined. I don't like it, but things like food stamps and medicare do provide good services for people that need them, and we the people agreed to pay for them. That doesn't mean they are as pure as the driven snow, or in need of a major overhaul, but it isn't socialism.

And it's okay if we disagree. It would be a pretty boring place if we all thought the exact same way on these things!

[flywise]

Are you saying that no matter what, if we pay taxes and that tax money is used for a government program it is socialism? That isn't how it works...

If I give $20 at church for my church to help people in need it isn't socialism, it's altruistic. If they hold a gun to my head and FORCE me to give $20 when I don't want to it's socialism... That's a broad stroke but you get the idea.

Again, I'm okay with my money being used for social programs run by the government that have not been forced on the tax payer, that isn't socialism.

I get your point about it being socialistic in nature, but in reality it is just a government program run amok, bloated and used by politicians to garner favor and votes; it's not really socialism as defined. I don't like it, but things like food stamps and medicare do provide good services for people that need them, and we the people agreed to pay for them. That doesn't mean they are as pure as the driven snow, or in need of a major overhaul, but it isn't socialism.

And it's okay if we disagree. It would be a pretty boring place if we all thought the exact same way on these things!

He and a few others are trying to dumb down the word socialist to make it more palatable.
FDR started this slide towards socialism in order to get and keep power of a segment of the population. Since then it has only expanded and apparently is taking a stronger and stronger hold on folks. PLEASE save me from myself type people are getting bigger in numbers daily.

[Theodore]

Are you saying that no matter what, if we pay taxes and that tax money is used for a government program it is socialism? That isn't how it works...

If I give $20 at church for my church to help people in need it isn't socialism, it's altruistic. If they hold a gun to my head and FORCE me to give $20 when I don't want to it's socialism... That's a broad stroke but you get the idea.

Again, I'm okay with my money being used for social programs run by the government that have not been forced on the tax payer, that isn't socialism.

I get your point about it being socialistic in nature, but in reality it is just a government program run amok, bloated and used by politicians to garner favor and votes; it's not really socialism as defined. I don't like it, but things like food stamps and medicare do provide good services for people that need them, and we the people agreed to pay for them. That doesn't mean they are as pure as the driven snow, or in need of a major overhaul, but it isn't socialism.

And it's okay if we disagree. It would be a pretty boring place if we all thought the exact same way on these things!

I think where I'm diverging from most people is that I'm viewing this from a homoeconomicus viewpoint. Everything has a cost associated with it and when I have to pay (taxes) for anything that benefits others, I'm engaging in socialism because my funds benefit the someone else. Before anyone calls it greed, it's not. It's an element of an economic theories--only do what benefits you. It's not something that's actually practiced, but it's used to explore economic situations.

Taxes are forced from me and they aren't used to benefit just me. So we see things differently.

However, I couldn't agree with you more that government programs have run amok, are bloated, and improperly used by politicians. Good grief, in my opinion this is the downfall of the U.S.

He and a few others are trying to dumb down the word socialist to make it more palatable.

No, in fact, I've been doing quite the opposite. I don't hold a particularly narrow view and ascribe unrealistic characteristics to a system I don't understand. Rather, I have been reading and sharing viewpoints.

[Rat]

I think where I'm diverging from most people is that I'm viewing this from a homoeconomicus viewpoint. Everything has a cost associated with it and when I have to pay (taxes) for anything that benefits others, I'm engaging in socialism because my funds benefit the someone else. Before anyone calls it greed, it's not. It's an element of an economic theories--only do what benefits you. It's not something that's actually practiced, but it's used to explore economic situations.

Taxes are forced from me and they aren't used to benefit just me. So we see things differently.

In a homocentric world (or economic/governmental system) you would be correct; but ours isn't.

However, I couldn't agree with you more that government programs have run amok, are bloated, and improperly used by politicians. Good grief, in my opinion this is the downfall of the U.S.

So we do agree on some things...

[Theodore]

In a homocentric world (or economic/governmental system) you would be correct; but ours isn't.


So we do agree on some things...

You're correct and fortunately we aren't all so self-centered.

And we just might agree on Granger hogs as well. I'm still kicking myself that I didn't at least swing by GRXH and drop off some beverages to show my appreciation for y'all. There's always next year... (my apologies to the other thread participants for going off-topic here)

[flywise]

I think where I'm diverging from most people is that I'm viewing this from a homoeconomicus viewpoint. Everything has a cost associated with it and when I have to pay (taxes) for anything that benefits others, I'm engaging in socialism because my funds benefit the someone else. Before anyone calls it greed, it's not. It's an element of an economic theories--only do what benefits you. It's not something that's actually practiced, but it's used to explore economic situations.

Taxes are forced from me and they aren't used to benefit just me. So we see things differently.

However, I couldn't agree with you more that government programs have run amok, are bloated, and improperly used by politicians. Good grief, in my opinion this is the downfall of the U.S.



No, in fact, I've been doing quite the opposite. I don't hold a particularly narrow view and ascribe unrealistic characteristics to a system I don't understand. Rather, I have been reading and sharing viewpoints.

I dont either because i have educated myself and ascribe realistic characteristics to a system i do understand.

[Playa]

Socialism plain and simple is when only a segment of the population is taxed and those tax revenues are used to benefit only a minority of the population.

Proper taxation in a capitalistic society all citizen pay and taxes are used for the whole welfare for things such as national defense, border security, roads and infrastructure.

Having said that I don't mind a modicum of socialism in society, for instance taxes to care for special needs individual who have absolutely no ability to care for themselves let alone contribute to society.

[Theodore]

Good morning, folks. I just wanted to share a couple links to some information about socialism. Let me be clear that I am not advocating socialism, I just think that it might be useful to understand the enemy, per se.

Here's a link to a brief article on socialism and some comparisons to other economic theories. It's very generalized. I don't like the format of the article as its broken up across several pages (at least on the mobile version), but it's not a long read and it seemed useful.

http://money.howstuffworks.com/socialism.htm

Here is a link to an award-winning podcast, How Stuff Works, where they cover socialism. I don't know where to link to the podcast on platforms other than iTunes, but here's something if you'd like to catch it via audio sometime.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=319015347

[texansfan]

EMS, Fire and public schools are the same for everyone, equal protection as it were, Obamacarre is not; one group pays for another group: Socialism.

Free college will be socialism;


one group pays for another group and the moneys will be taken BY FORCE if necessary because it will not be mandated by the people.

How do you figure compulsory K-12 education is OK but K-16 education is SOCIALISM?
They are BOTH socialist items.
Taking my tax dollars and forcing me to pay for things I choose not to use.
Or what if I was born sterile and couldn't have kids then I'd have no choice in the matter.

Do you live in Texas?
I live in Houston and if I lived in a $300k house I would pay $6,000 per year for a school system I won't use at all.
I'm paying for Lupita and Demontrayvious's kids to be educated.

How is that not socialism?
How is K12 free education any different than K-16 free education?

If I don't enroll my kids in SOME sort of school, HISD, ROBS or home school program, the govt will try to throw me in jail for child endangerment/neglect
How is that land of the free?
Govt forcing me to do something against my will.

Obamacare is the same thing.
Just as we don't want dumb people walking around effecting our conversations, we don't want sick people walking around effecting our health.

Your argument is weak and you need to do better.

[texansfan]

Socialism plain and simple is when only a segment of the population is taxed and those tax revenues are used to benefit only a minority of the population.

Proper taxation in a capitalistic society all citizen pay and taxes are used for the whole welfare for things such as national defense, border security, roads and infrastructure.

Having said that I don't mind a modicum of socialism in society, for instance taxes to care for special needs individual who have absolutely no ability to care for themselves let alone contribute to society.

Oh you mean like my vegan sister's tax dollars goes to pay for preserving hunting grounds?
Or my neighbor's ta dollars goes to help pay for some guy to dig a pond or plant trees on his PERSONAL land that no one else will be able to use in Colorado?

Socialism is all through our govt.
Hail, some TBHers have been on welfare before.
It is what it is.

[Playa]

Oh you mean like my vegan sister's tax dollars goes to pay for preserving hunting grounds?
Or my neighbor's ta dollars goes to help pay for some guy to dig a pond or plant trees on his PERSONAL land that no one else will be able to use in Colorado?

Socialism is all through our govt.
Hail, some TBHers have been on welfare before.
It is what it is.

EXACTLY like that. My post never claimed it didn't exist or wasn't rampant already, because it is. But that doesent mean we slip deeper into the abyss.

To your point about education. A foundationally educated society that is literate etc is a general benefit for the whole. Arguably a college education does not benefit the whole as the entire populace does not need a degree. After all there will still be toilets to scrub, wrenches to be turned and burgers to be flipped, phones to be answered, lawns to keep and the list goes on and on, and none of them require a college degree. Furthermore, where do we stop. Should we go ahead and commit to graduate level included or wait for that progression? If grad level, why not doctorate?

[texansfan]

To your point about education...

1. A foundationally educated society that is literate etc is a general benefit for the whole.

2. Arguably a college education does not benefit the whole as the entire populace does not need a degree.

3. After all there will still be toilets to scrub, wrenches to be turned and burgers to be flipped, phones to be answered, lawns to keep and the list goes on and on, and none of them require a college degree.

4. Furthermore, where do we stop? Should we go ahead and commit to graduate level included or wait for that progression? If grad level, why not doctorate?

I laid out your post a little better so I could respond.
As I was reading point #2 I was already thinking about your point #4.
Where DO we draw the line of 'necessary' education?
If all a person is going to do is flip burgers and scrub toilets do they really need an education more than say the 5th grade?
If you're doing is point #3, manual labor digging holes with a shovel in landscaping or a road project, how much "education" do you really need for that?

Why make 17 year olds know who Rembrandt and Picasso were?
Why force them to read books some Chinese guy wrote (or didn't) 4,000 years ago?
I'm confused about Confucious.
Why does a kid who wants to be a cattle rancher need to learn about the Ming Dynasty?
Ottoman Empire?
Those things are all taught in high schools.
And now, supposedly, they are being taught that Trump wants to make all muslims wear arm bands like Jews had to wear in 1930s Germany.

But I agree, college should not be free for everyone.
I think we should scale back compulsory education until the 10th grade (16 years old).
That's how it is in many european countries.
The last two years of secondary education are optional.

[WTJim]

Free is always paid for by someone else and free is an option that inherently doesn't last. I'm tired of paying for someone else's welfare onset by their poor decisions in life. If you've never contributed to the system by being a productive citizen, making good life choices and then something happens to you, out of your control I have no issue giving you a hand up. I'm sick of being made to give hand outs to those tin pans screaming for more when they've never sweat, bled or wept from their hard labor trying to carve their own path. Enough is enough.