Bernie Sanders is going to kill this country, given a chance

[Theodore]

Public schools are a disaster
gov. health care is a disaster
gov. welfare is an evil scheme to enslave a portion of the society, and a disaster
gov. mail is a disaster
fire and police are local and not socialist
anything the feds touch is worse off than it was.

I understand, demonstrably explaining something with evidences will take too long and it's easier to just say something is a disaster. And there's nothing wrong with holding those comments as opinions.

I do disagree with you on almost all points, but those are just my opinions and I won't sit here and argue opinions.

However, fire departments and police departments are a form of socialism. I realize that may not seem palatable to you as your listed occupation is firefighter, but that doesn't change the fact that your profession is taxpayer-funded and that you serve people regardless of their ability to privately pay for fire department services.

For what it's worth, I can't think of a single profession that isn't regulated and/or supported by some government entity. Essentially, we all depend on the government in some way. We're just appropriately leery of change and socialism (like all social/political reforms) brings risks and change that make many people uncomfortable. I'm not saying socialism is my preferred path for the country, but I think we should consider all options.

[Ætheling]

I actually like certain elements of socialism such as insurance programs. I pay my part each month and if something happens, I work with my insurer to pay the bills. If someone is so opposed to socialism, do they abstain from insurance programs? I know, we're forced (or very strongly pressured and can be financially penalized) to participate in some programs, but we also opt into many of them.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think pure socialism would work well. But, there are parts of our society that benefit from programs that are socialist in nature.

I like some things about Bernie, I'll admit that I do--not enough to vote for him. But he should have kept his platform to fewer, more reasonable reforms if wanted credibility.

But let's be honest, does anyone think that if (by some miracle) he is elected that he'll be able to pull off all of his reforms?

Insurance, up till recently was not government mandated socialism. If a group of individuals in a free market capitalist system choose to pool together into an group insurance program that is one thing. A socialist run government mandating the fact is another. Same with police, fire and ems, this a service we choose to have and pay for, it just happens that it is paid for via taxes, whether it be mandated or not by the govt we choose to have these services even primary education could fall into this. Higher education and health insurance I don't believe fall into this category. Regardless, if the govt mandates it than it is a socialist government.

Outside of the basic services is where most conservatives have an issue. We could say me putting money in the collection plate for the poor is socialism but its not really.

[Neck]

Everyone here keeps calling it free. LOL and SMH!!!! Nothing could be further from the truth. It is tax payer funded. It dang sure isn't free.

[flywise]

Everyone here keeps calling it free. LOL and SMH!!!! Nothing could be further from the truth. It is tax payer funded. It dang sure isn't free.

Its amazing how far the country has fallen from the greatest generation.
50-70 years ago not one American would even consider getting anything for free OR tax payer funded. It was American to EARN anything and everything you wanted.
There is absolutely no chance for this country to survive as founded when socialist gov. is mentioned as a viable option in the same conversation as American freedom

The public schools certainly have dumbed down the American citizen

[Theodore]

Insurance, up till recently was not government mandated socialism. If a group of individuals in a free market capitalist system choose to pool together into an group insurance program that is one thing. A socialist run government mandating the fact is another. Same with police, fire and ems, this a service we choose to have and pay for, it just happens that it is paid for via taxes, whether it be mandated or not by the govt we choose to have these services even primary education could fall into this. Higher education and health insurance I don't believe fall into this category. Regardless, if the govt mandates it than it is a socialist government.

Outside of the basic services is where most conservatives have an issue. We could say me putting money in the collection plate for the poor is socialism but its not really.

I really hope my comments don't come off as being rude or dismissive. I really am just trying to contribute to a conversation.

I was using a rather loose form of socialism, but I thought the underlying premise of combining resources to cover costs regardless of which group members require the service was the general idea. I'm just surprised when people feel like they're not paying for varying forms of socialism already.

I don't think of socialism as having to be mandated by a government, but rather a form for an economy and social structure. A socialist government, sure, but I think people can form socialist-type groups to promote their interests and well-being.

I, too, am rather conservative, but I think that it's important to really look at other perspectives and really dig into the data to see what's happening.

And for what small bit it's worth, I don't trust a single thing any politician has ever said. I think there's always a hidden agenda when someone thinks they are in a position of power. I don't believe Bernie or the rest of them. I'm voting for Camacho anyways.

[Thundervee]

Its amazing how far the country has fallen from the greatest generation.
50-70 years ago not one American would even consider getting anything for free OR tax payer funded. It was American to EARN anything and everything you wanted.
There is absolutely no chance for this country to survive as founded when socialist gov. is mentioned as a viable option in the same conversation as American freedom

The public schools certainly have dumbed down the American citizen

Truth!![emoji106]

[ttechdallas]

Its amazing how far the country has fallen from the greatest generation.
50-70 years ago not one American would even consider getting anything for free OR tax payer funded. It was American to EARN anything and everything you wanted.
There is absolutely no chance for this country to survive as founded when socialist gov. is mentioned as a viable option in the same conversation as American freedom

The public schools certainly have dumbed down the American citizen

Have our schools really dumbed us down? Or have we been dumbed down because we increasingly dismiss reality in favor of false arguments made by our government and elected party leaders?

No one here advocated socialism yet the argument or even fear of socialism is being used to dismiss everything else. What is dumbing down America is people seeing what they believe instead of believing what they see.

Exact same thing is happening on the left - failing to recognize harsh realities that are crippling the country in favor of false arguments that blame the right. No one lives in reality anymore.

We are screwed and it will only get worse the more people believe all our problems are the other side's fault and our side is only the way to fix them.

[Ætheling]

I really hope my comments don't come off as being rude or dismissive. I really am just trying to contribute to a conversation.

I was using a rather loose form of socialism, but I thought the underlying premise of combining resources to cover costs regardless of which group members require the service was the general idea. I'm just surprised when people feel like they're not paying for varying forms of socialism already.

I don't think of socialism as having to be mandated by a government, but rather a form for an economy and social structure. A socialist government, sure, but I think people can form socialist-type groups to promote their interests and well-being.

I, too, am rather conservative, but I think that it's important to really look at other perspectives and really dig into the data to see what's happening.

And for what small bit it's worth, I don't trust a single thing any politician has ever said. I think there's always a hidden agenda when someone thinks they are in a position of power. I don't believe Bernie or the rest of them. I'm voting for Camacho anyways.

I didn't see them as being rude or dismissive at all. My point was to drive what I guess you could call accepted social cost v government mandated social costs that come from a socialist government. Obama care would fit this bill. I had insurance before as you originally described and I didn't need the govt forcing me to do so, it was my choice. Now under a socialist government (current admin) I have no choice in the matter.

[Rat]

EMS and Firefighting are not socialist in nature. These are services that are mandated by the PEOPLE and administered by a governmental agency. Yes, they are paid for by taxes, but that isn't the defining factor when considering something a socialist endeavor or not. Same thing with public schools; they are also mandated by the people and administered by the government. IOW, we the people CHOOSE to pay for them through taxes.

Obamacare is socialist in nature; it was NOT mandated by the people, the money for it is being taken BY FORCE, by the government and administered as THE GOVERNMENT sees fit.

EMS, Fire and public schools are the same for everyone, equal protection as it were, Obamacarre is not; one group pays for another group: Socialism.

Free college will be socialism; one group pays for another group and the moneys will be taken BY FORCE if necessary because it will not be mandated by the people.

Paying taxes and having a government is part of a capitalist economy; the GOVERNMENT TAKING my money under threat of force or penalty is socialism.

There are no degrees of separation on this; money is either freely given by the tax payers or it is forcibly taken from them by the government.

No socialist program should be allowed to stand in this nation, ever. It already has a foothold; and if we the people don't stop it, this will destroy our great nation like it has ALL the other nations and empires that have attempted it.

I'm not saying we the people can never have a social program like a single payer health care system, just don't FORCE it on the American People, we should have a vote and a say as to what our tax money is spent on.

[Ætheling]

You see what they are calling it? An individual shared responsibility payment! LMFAO

https://www.irs.gov/Affordable-Care-Act/The-Individual-Shared-Responsibility-Payment-An-Overview

[Be10dwn]

EMS and Firefighting are not socialist in nature. These are services that are mandated by the PEOPLE and administered by a governmental agency. Yes, they are paid for by taxes, but that isn't the defining factor when considering something a socialist endeavor or not. Same thing with public schools; they are also mandated by the people and administered by the government. IOW, we the people CHOOSE to pay for them through taxes.

Obamacare is socialist in nature; it was NOT mandated by the people, the money for it is being taken BY FORCE, by the government and administered as THE GOVERNMENT sees fit.

EMS, Fire and public schools are the same for everyone, equal protection as it were, Obamacarre is not; one group pays for another group: Socialism.

Free college will be socialism; one group pays for another group and the moneys will be taken BY FORCE if necessary because it will not be mandated by the people.

Paying taxes and having a government is part of a capitalist economy; the GOVERNMENT TAKING my money under threat of force or penalty is socialism.

There are no degrees of separation on this; money is either freely given by the tax payers or it is forcibly taken from them by the government.

No socialist program should be allowed to stand in this nation, ever. It already has a foothold; and if we the people don't stop it, this will destroy our great nation like it has ALL the other nations and empires that have attempted it.

I'm not saying we the people can never have a social program like a single payer health care system, just don't FORCE it on the American People, we should have a vote and a say as to what our tax money is spent on.

So what you are saying is it's a matter of perspective. If you view it as being forced upon you, it's socialism, but if you agree with it, it's not.

[Ætheling]

So what you are saying is it's a matter of perspective. If you view it as being forced upon you, it's socialism, but if you agree with it, it's not.

Merriam Webster


1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2
2
a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property

b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3
3
: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

I think it reasonable to assume socialism has to involve the government forcing it. Not what is agreed upon or not.

[Rat]

Have our schools really dumbed us down? Or have we been dumbed down because we increasingly dismiss reality in favor of false arguments made by our government and elected party leaders?

One and the same, schools are teaching what the leaders want them to teach; and the NEA (school leadership) is a bunch of left wingers. So, politicians are teaching our youth how to think a certain way which, in effect, is a dumbing down.

No one here advocated socialism yet the argument or even fear of socialism is being used to dismiss everything else. What is dumbing down America is people seeing what they believe instead of believing what they see.

Obamacare is socialism and Bernie is also advocating socialism with free college; if it is taken by threat of force it is socialism.

Exact same thing is happening on the left - failing to recognize harsh realities that are crippling the country in favor of false arguments that blame the right. No one lives in reality anymore.

I agree, more people care about the D or R as opposed to caring about what is right or wrong.

We are screwed and it will only get worse the more people believe all our problems are the other side's fault and our side is only the way to fix them.

I would rather have two opposing views fighting it out than have both agree on socialism.

[Rat]

So what you are saying is it's a matter of perspective. If you view it as being forced upon you, it's socialism, but if you agree with it, it's not.

That's no t it at all, in fact, you missed the entire point!

So here's an easy example for you.
My son is home schooled. Some home schoolers believe that, since they have no children in public schools, they shouldn't have to pay for the public schools out of their taxes. I am not of this mind set and believe that we need an educated public for this nation to prosper. So, even though I don't have a child in public schools I am okay with paying the taxes to have an educated public for the benefit of the nation. And, as a tax payer, we, collectively, have agreed to fund the schools this way. Even though I don't fully agree with the school's programs I do not view it as socialism but part and parcel of a whole and healthy system.

Whether it is forced upon us isn't a matter of perspective; it is either forced upon us or not. I may be in the minority on an issue, but if it approved by the tax payers I will support it; because that is the way our government operates. I may not like it especially, but I don't consider it socialism.

[Rat]

Merriam Webster


1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2
2
a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property

b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3
3
: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

I think it reasonable to assume socialism has to involve the government forcing it. Not what is agreed upon or not.

And more to your point; how can it be forced upon you if you agree with it?

If 78% of the citizens want something and the government implements it, how is that forcing? However, if 78% of the citizens DON'T want something (like Obamacare) and the government still implements it, then it is being forced on us!