Minimum draw weight?

[keep]

I have always thought the 40# limit is not needed with the performace of todays bows. But now I have proof. My 9yr old daughter shot her first ram yesterday and the arrow sunk to the fletching and had 5 in of arrow hanging out the other side. We passed many shots because they didn't feel right. She did great and made a 10yd shot and hit the back of the lungs. The blind then exploded with excitement. It was the coolest hunt I have been on.
So, I know it can be done under 40# as long as limitations are adhered to like no long shots till the KE gets up there.
I'll post her story and pics later. She also wants to get on here and tell the people she met at bownanza, you guys will have fun trying to figure out the spelling in her post but I promised I would let her tell her side too.

[slayer]

Reply from the Heart

African Bowhunter,

I appreciate your cander, your response and defense of these awesome bowhunters! I'm not undermanning these people's right to hunt. I'm only suggesting that if the minimum draw weight is completely dropped, you will have alot of people hunting that don't have the quality training Red Dot and her granddaughter have or any of the other young men and women on this post. I have had Hunter Safety Class, even though I'm not required to have it and honestly, it was a joke. Where is the proficiency testing? Just about anybody can pass a test on paper, but can they take these skills to the field. I agree with you that it would be a shame for people who love to hunt, such as Red Dot and she would not be able to hunt if the law isn't changed. She is obviously a great ARCHER! As said before, this forum is filled with like minded hunters who love the great outdoors. Millions of others who are not, and do whatever they want once their in the field. I went to the LSBA website, the vote was a majority to not change the minimum! Can you explain that? I'm not opposed to dropping to 35lb, with an extensive archery safety class! By the way, I'm not Jeff, I'm Scott. My kids are only 65 lbs and 4 ft. tall. I neither am running for office, PTA or any other organization, just want the outdoors to still be good, when my kids are older. I also meant no disrespect to you or Red Dot, just my honest opinion.

[Africanbowhunter]

Scott


Hi Ya

You guys are all good looking fellows

The National Bowhunter Education Program (NBEP)and the Hunter Education( used to be called "Hunter Safety Program") are two( 2) entirely different programs.

*Hunter ED is Mandatory for hunting in Texas & many States like Colorado .
*Required on all Military Post & bases for all hunters.

*Some States require a IBEP course for bowhunting as well.

*Most of the US Military bases require Both hunter education program and if you bowhunt the International/Texas Bowhunter education course-
Bowhunter Education AKA IBEP AKA TBEP is required on Both US Military bases IE Ft Hood & Camp Bullis etc
*Most Military bases also have a Shooting proficiency Exam as well.

*Most of America's National Wildlife Refuges (NWR) like Arkansas NWR are Federal Properties that have requirements often for both courses plus an Proficiency Tests. IE Usually they usually require placing 3 of 5 arrow ina 9 inch pie paper Plate at 10, 20 & 30 yards or some combo thereof.

*At Aberdeen proving Grounds MD Where I used to bowhunt the Post Archery & Bowhunting club required the other 2 courses plus a day long
Orientation, plus placing 3 of 4 arrow into the vital zone of a deer target with broadheads; one from the from the ground at un- known ranges,
and a second group from 20 foot elevated shooting platforms in order to bowhunt.

One try per day.


At Ft Belvoir VA outside the National Capital you have to shoot Broadhead and place 4 out of 5 in a six inch circle at 20 yards and again 4 out of 5 at 30 yards ata six inch circle, draw with magic marker shoot ona white butte under florescent lighting.
its a White circle not a solid black Aiming dot.

*Hard to see ....allows 2 tries per day max 3 efforts then no more trys.

65 year old Lady Visitor Dot Grantham took the course just for fun one year when I was qualified ( I passed Yeeha) and passed shooting Steel force 4 blade Broadheads on a Gold Tip 35/55 arrow and a 30# Parker Challenger Bow.

Shooting exams and proficiency are part of bowhunter education and training.

Some of the Army Posts have had bowhunting for 45 years in some some cases and the bow wounding rate is the same or lower than shotgun Belvoir no longer has any firearm hunting for deer.


Being able to shoot well is great, but the education of both Hunter training programs plus SHOOTING PROFICIENCY EXAMS weeds out the opportunistic hunter looking for an easy deer , and trained educated and experienced Bowhunters have no problem passing all 3 barriers.... using well match high quality equipment.


The parents or Archery club had also host similar training and education program for new and younger Bowhunters. at club ranges in late summer.

I am all for all forms and methods of hunter education.

I am against Mandatory Hunter education as in the long run it THWARTS/STOPS the effort of total hunter recruitment, and the numbers of hunters is dropping each and every year to the glee of the HSUS & PETA & ARAs.


However Hunter Education at the Public Hearings only a addressed with the Texas of Texas dropping the age to enroll and complete a hunter education program from 12 to 9 to allow more youths to try hunting..

I just don't see it changing IBEP/ TBEP ANY.

The second part of TP&W Proposal; is to drop the 40# weigh rules which is seldom enforced.


The two issues are both effect bowhunting but are quite Different in scope.

Hope this helps

We urge you and your family and friends to take a IBEP /NBEP course as its a eye opening experience. Lot of fun too.

Back when the NBEP was just getting started they found that over 80% of graduates bought a new bow within 2 months of taking the course.

Many TBH members are Certified Bowhunter Instructors as part of the TBEP
there ate Thread stating where 7 when TBEP IBEP course are being offer in Texas


Happy Hunting


TINK


LSBA & NBEF have web sites but I don't have them handy

[WIKI]

I have read through only 60% of the responces here but decided to post anyway. I have a 11yr old son who can not pull back 40#'s. I am excited that the change is on the board and hope it passes.
The issue of wounding deer has come up in many post on this thread.It also comes up in many threads through out the season and most shots were taken with top of the line equipment and 60# plus draw weight.
I agree with trailboss and other about the education requirment.But in my opinion it caomes down to making the right choice on stand and shot placement.

[Buff]

I have asked this question 5 or 6 times and have yet to get a anserew....Tink what do you think should the minimum be?

[Africanbowhunter]

Buff

I have asked this question 5 or 6 times and have yet to get a anserw....Tink what do you think should the minimum be?

I feel that A Minimum is a waste of time for Game wardens.

If a Texas Game Warden busted a kid because his bow pulled 34# with a 35# min or a kid pulled 29# with a 30# Minimum and got a ticket, that kid would never bowhunt again. The county judge would throw the case out but the kids would be turn off and be afraid of game wardens for life. my opinion. OK? Its easer for a kid esp from a single parent family to drop of or hunting and taking all those classes etc.

I would suggest that a Texas Youth bowhunter be required to attend a pass a IBEP Class of 12 hours before getting an archery tag in Texas.



Buff Another requirement or rule would be that Anyone shooting bows under 35 # or under 15 years of age must shoot a Super sharp Single Blade 100 grain or more ( 2 blade flat head)Broadhead that is a new Broadhead taken from the factory package like a Magnus Stinger or a German Kinetics Silver Flame 100 grain or 125 grain or a Steel Force to blade head on a 300 grain +Plus carbon or aluminum arrow and never shot before... each bowhunter would have to have at least 6 new unfired new clean sharp broadheads in his possession
No mechanical head for youths.
No flint or bone arrowheads, No drugs, chemicals, tranquilizers pods or poison either.
Style of bow must be a modern Compound or crossbow only.
Shot at deer be limited to 15 yards or less.
Broadhead sharpness kills deer thought cutting & laceration but bow weight does not.


No deer has ever been killed by a bow, only SHARP arrows kill deer & game.

for discussion only my thought my two cents. OK?

[PYBUCK]

I feel that A Minimum is a waste of time for Game wardens.

If a Texas Game Warden busted a kid because his bow pulled 34# with a 35# min or a kid pulled 29# with a 30# Minimum and got a ticket, that kid would never bowhunt again. The county judge would throw the case out but the kids would be turn off and be afraid of game wardens for life. my opinion. OK? Its easer for a kid esp from a single parent family to drop of or hunting and taking all those classes etc.

I would suggest that a Texas Youth bowhunter be required to attend a pass a IBEP Class of 12 hours before getting an archery tag in Texas.



Buff Another requirement or rule would be that Anyone shooting bows under 35 # or under 15 years of age must shoot a Super sharp Single Blade 100 grain or more ( 2 blade flat head)Broadhead that is a new Broadhead taken from the factory package like a Magnus Stinger or a German Kinetics Silver Flame 100 grain or 125 grain or a Steel Force to blade head on a 300 grain +Plus carbon or aluminum arrow and never shot before... each bowhunter would have to have at least 6 new unfired new clean sharp broadheads in his possession
No mechanical head for youths.
No flint or bone arrowheads, No drugs, chemicals, tranquilizers pods or poison either.
Style of bow must be a modern Compound or crossbow only.
Shot at deer be limited to 15 yards or less.
Broadhead sharpness kills deer thought cutting & laceration but bow weight does not.


No deer has ever been killed by a bow, only SHARP arrows kill deer & game.

for discussion only my thought my two cents. OK?

Tink, You are right, sharp arrows kill game, but they have to be launched by a bow that has sufficient energy to allow that sharp arrow to produce enough kinetic energy to penetrate the vitals of a game animal and kill by hemorrhaging. For someone worring about to much burden being placed on game wardens and turning kids off of bowhunting for using an underweight bow, your propoasal has way too many rules and restrictions for the game wardens to enforse and people to keep up with. 6 unused single blade broadheads in possession, no mechanicals broadheads for youths, no recurve bows, shots of 15 yards or less. The game wardens will have to be all over kids to enforce these rules. Simpliest rule to change and enforce is the draw weight of the bow but not without research to back up what is needed to be effective and humane to the animals we pursue.

[qzilla]

Qzilla, I totally disagree with you!!!! If a parent KNOWS his child can shoot well enough to kill an animal, then I don't see why that child can't do that!!! How old were YOU when you started hunting? 50 or 60???? WERE YOU CAPABLE when you first started hunting??? Do you have children??? I'll be willing to bet that if you do, you spend NO time with him/her. Bet you haven't ever taken one (of yours or anyone else's) with you hunting!!! Not only is that QUALITY time with your child, you are teaching him a sport that many children find exhilirating and satisfying, not to mention your child will know where his dinner actually comes from - from beginning to end. You are also teaching your child survival by taking him/her hunting. Not to maim or harm people, but to protect and respect animals you may come upon. You also teach them respect for humans by taking a child hunting.

How many animals have YOU lost??? I have only been shooting a bow for not quite 5 years and have NEVER lost an animal after I shot it!!!! Can you say that???

I have killed 3 bears, a red doe, an alligator (do you know where to shoot an alligator?) many, many white tail Bucks and does, jack rabbits, squirrels, cotton tails, Fallow deer...all with my bow. Have never had the chance at an Axis, elk,mule deer, etc. And yes, many are trophies.

YES, Tink taught me to shoot. And YES, he does many, many studies on different things. He studies stastictics. He is always reading a book or reading statistics on the internet. How much do you study, sir? How much time have you spent with any child?

This is almost comical but, I will answer it anyway.

I started hunting when I was 4 and killed my first doe when I was 5. I was capable with the equipment I was using but, it was also a custom built rifle and I was fortunate enough to have a Dad and many of his friends I shot with almost daily. I was also fortunate enough to grow up on a ranch where I could shoot anytime I wanted to. So yes, I was ready but, it was with a rifle.

I started shooting archery equipment right at my 9th birthday. I was not ready to go hunting and I shot for almost a full year before it was even attemtped. Back then they did not make youth bows. I had to draw 40lbs at about 3" too long of draw length. By the time I started hunting, still at age9, I was shooting 70lbs. I shot 5 deer that year and did not loose a single animal including a P&Y quilifying 10pt. I used a Bear Razorhead.

Yes, I do have children. I spend more time with my child than any parent could hope for and I am extremely thankful for that. My little girl turns 4 on Wed. and has already killed 4 Whitetail, 2 hogs, 1 Javelina and a Trophy Gobbler. Yes, I was present at all of them and like me when I was little she was shooting about 200rds/week during the season. I limited her shots to 50 yards even with a rifle.

To add to that, I took 7 first time hunters/children, and took several more hunting that had already been. One of them shot a 158" whitetail which is his best deer ever. He was 9. I only do this because I am selfish.

The funny part is that we used a rifle in all these instances and we had the best times of our lives. I do not see how using a stick and string or using a rifle makes your time in the woods, especially with your child, and more or less rewarding? That is silly sounding.

I do not value the kill, I value the time outdoors. We could be shed hunting, fishing, or just watching animals.

I cannot say that I have never lost an animal but, I have 20 years of shooting. I also shoot considerably more animals than most. I know 1 year I shot over 170 does with a bow. So, I have lost a few animals but, not many. The only animals I have lost since I got my dog has been 2 nilgai, and I am just convinced they are tough as nails.

I think there is a lot of good in what Tink does. That does not mean I agree with everything.

I have said many posts ago, that I would be ok with this if there were other stipulations. I have asked many questions and had many comment. Some were sharp and pointed and others were not.

My beef is that it seems Tink does not want ANY other opions. He does not want any suggestions and if ANYone else gives or offers and opinion it is wrong. I think that is something most should be concerned with.

My advise to you would be to appreciate that you can shoot a bow, that you have hunted and get to hunt a lot, that you are physically able to enjoy the outdoors and that you are able to spend time with children. These are all blessings it sounds like you are taking for granted because you or your daughter cannot legally shoot whitetail, turkey or javelina in the state of TX with archery equipment.

There are lots of things I wished I could do but, I don't running around trying to change laws to suit my personal needs. Be greatful for what you have and what you can do.

Living in a free country does not mean everything is equal. Nothing is fair and no one was promised that everything would be fair.

Do you think you need to boycott Disney World because there are some rides your daughter cannot go on because she is not a certain height?

[qzilla]

I feel that A Minimum is a waste of time for Game wardens.

If a Texas Game Warden busted a kid because his bow pulled 34# with a 35# min or a kid pulled 29# with a 30# Minimum and got a ticket, that kid would never bowhunt again. The county judge would throw the case out but the kids would be turn off and be afraid of game wardens for life. my opinion. OK? Its easer for a kid esp from a single parent family to drop of or hunting and taking all those classes etc.

I would suggest that a Texas Youth bowhunter be required to attend a pass a IBEP Class of 12 hours before getting an archery tag in Texas.



Buff Another requirement or rule would be that Anyone shooting bows under 35 # or under 15 years of age must shoot a Super sharp Single Blade 100 grain or more ( 2 blade flat head)Broadhead that is a new Broadhead taken from the factory package like a Magnus Stinger or a German Kinetics Silver Flame 100 grain or 125 grain or a Steel Force to blade head on a 300 grain +Plus carbon or aluminum arrow and never shot before... each bowhunter would have to have at least 6 new unfired new clean sharp broadheads in his possession
No mechanical head for youths.
No flint or bone arrowheads, No drugs, chemicals, tranquilizers pods or poison either.
Style of bow must be a modern Compound or crossbow only.
Shot at deer be limited to 15 yards or less.
Broadhead sharpness kills deer thought cutting & laceration but bow weight does not.


No deer has ever been killed by a bow, only SHARP arrows kill deer & game.

for discussion only my thought my two cents. OK?

For the 1st time I agree with you on this.

Like I said MANY times before, there has to be more to the law than just abolishing the draw weight restriction.

I am not sure how to do this where it is concievable for the Wardens to monitor but, something else has to be done.

[asttbe]

Well said

[chrisk]

Many of those states listed also have much more strict age requirements than our state does. You are not showing the whole thing, just what you want.


Some of those states also have a state income tax and legalized same sex marriage.

Does that mean TX should follow suit?

My state doesn't support age restrictions, or legalized same sex marrige and we still get to use bows that are #35 or more to hunt whitetail deer.
Chris Kiefner

[jyoung]

By the time I started hunting, still at age9, I was shooting 70lbs.

Wow... This seems a little unrealistic to me. I am not sure even little Hercules could have drawn a 70lb bow at 9yrs old. Not sure why you would even want to.

I am all for change and I will regulate my child's hunting on my own depending on many factors.

[qzilla]

Back then we did not have all the choices we had now. If you wanted a short draw bow (still not short) it usually topped at 35-40lbs. If you wanted a "regular" bow it was usually 70-80lbs with 80lbs being more common. Those were the days before carbon arrows and before bows were very fast. So, when I wanted to shoot more than 40lbs and I could handle it, I made the next big jump. I cannot remember the exact bow but, it was an XI.

I also remember the very first Beeman carbon junky arrows that splintered when you shot stuff with them. Those and those punchcutter mechanical heads!!!

[Africanbowhunter]

Somebody didn't real all of my last post!

Someone failed to real of of my post


I did not make any Proposal but threw out some thoughts to provoke thinking

I said for discussion only!


I found there was little discussion about Bowhunter Education but a lot of tackle

An editor of Bowhunter Magazine Dave Holt , technical editor and author of 2 books on Bowhunting used statistics and conducted tests in 1994 in a Special issue of Bowhunter Magazine using date by Norb Mulvaney, former technical editor of Bowhunting World Magazine that found that 11 -1/2 # of KE was sufficient to penetrate fresh animal flesh( fresh cut Beef ) & its in a very controlled scientific archery Broadhead experiment. The articled has been accepted and used to scientific prove that 1 1/2 # of KE will penetrate game well enough to kill it 100% when shot in the thorax etc.

The Govt of the Former Transvaal Prov in South Africa used this data and expert advise of expert Bowhunters with African Experience and that of resident South African Professional hunters to determine if they doubled the 11 1/2# of KE to 23# of KE and rounded it off to 25 # of KE that 25# pound of KE was the minimum energy requirement to ethically bowhunt African Plains game. It doubled the minim required.

SO chart was made starting 25# KE for deer & antelope class South African Plains game with exceptions for ladies and youth who were experienced in bowhunting.
Under these exemptions granted, a 6 year oldAmerican boy came to South Africa and Shot a huge Impala ram a huge boar Warthog and three smaller wart hogs with his 25# Hoyt Bow

This was reported in a 1999-1998 issue of ARCHERY MAGAZINE being published by the NFAA.


Allof this is Moot as the proposal is the TP &W and many of its commissions who bowhunt wish to drop the 40# Weight limit period.


Please go back and read m entire Post OK Please Kind sir!
This was for Buff BTW.

[Africanbowhunter]

TP&W Drops 40# Requirement on March 27th

As I predicted many time here on TBH, the Texas Parks & Wildlife has dropped the 40# minim requirement on bowhunting equipment, as I said they would.

This was a direct result of grassroots action started by fellow Bowhunters in Texas


Howie Smith a Purple Heart Wounded hero & former member of the 10th Mountain Division wrote a Thread called

" Bowhunters Unite to drop the 40# Weight limit."

The Following people Wanted it dropped.

I think we just added support to what was already decided.

Gov. Rick Perry wanted it dropped.

Gov asked Peter Holt, Chairman of the Texas Parks & Wildlife Commission who also wanted it dropped.

Several Commissioners themselves bowhunter, wanted it dropped.

Many Texans spoke out in favor of dropping the rule. I did.

I met Carter P Smith the new Executive Director who wanted it dropped.

Most of the members of TBH wanted it dropped.

Von Evans & Tink Nathan addressed the Executive Council of LSBA and asked LSBA to help get the 40# rule removed.

Youth hunters and parents wanted it dropped

Older hunters and children of older hunters want it dropped.

Female of all ages & sizes wanted it dropped any many females cannot draw 40# much less shoot it accurately.

War Wounded heroes, some with one arm, many with back injuries wanted it dropped.

As a result of this down home grassroots action sparked by Howie Smith's thread on TBH it was dropped.


A great day for young hunters in Texas
A great day for bowhunting in Texas

Congrats to Howie who can bowhunt deer with his 12 year old daughter jasmine for the first time during bow season.i


Congrats to Howie who can now bowhunt since he cannot draw 40# any longer!


Thanks Howie and Happy trails to you until we meet again.....



Tink