Rules of Fair Chase for Pope and Young Clarification

[DamonJ]

IMHO I have bolded what makes High Fenced ranches ineligable for P&Y and B&C.


Fair Chase
From its beginnings, the Club has grown to epitomize fair chase and sportsmanship in hunting. This fair chase philosophy reaches to the very foundations of the hunting spirit; it remains a dominant factor in the personal hunting ethic of every responsible individual; it is key to bowhunting's future with deep roots in America's hunting heritage. Simply defined, fair chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal. It does, however, extend beyond the hunt itself; it is an attitude and a way of life based in a deep-seated respect for wildlife, for the environment, and for other individuals who share the bounty of this vast continent's natural resources.


See when you high fence your ranch, you are no longer sharing the natural resource...


This should get some blood flowing..

[Mailman]

I think you're just trying to justify your own situation. We all know that high fences are put up for one reason, and that's to grow larger deer. They're not put up to "preserve free ranging habitat". More often than not, they're put up to grow the most AB-normal, freaks of nature that a human could ever comprehend. While I'm not adamantly against all high fence hunting, and have really no problem with several thousand acres ranches and larger high fenced.... where do you draw the line? that's probably the problem P&Y and B&C have. If 1000 acres is good, why not 998, and then why not 945? It's a slippery slope.


I might be wrong, but I just don't see 8 foot fences, deer with ear tags, protien feeders per 100 acres, someone manually retrieving sperm from a huge buck and impregnating breeder does for release as "free range" (not saying this is your place, just general comments)

I also would be willing to bet P&Y didn't think there would be hundreds of
120" (and ultimatley had to increase it) deer shot with a bow every year...That's probably why they came up with that figure

To an extent that is correct, but every ranch and ranch owner is a different circumstance. I would be willing to bet that most all ranch owners would rather put that expense (cost of building fence) into other aspects of their ranch. Better lodge, protein, food plots, etc.

To grow big deer they need age and nutrition, but no matter how much nutrition you give them, if your neighbors shoot them at 3.5, they will never grow into Mature Trophy Class Deer. Jamie used to have something in his signature and it went something like this... "I don't fence good deer in, I fence bad neighbors out!!!" Or something to that effect. Your management plan is only has good as the people next door to you.

I only know the Berger's through what Travis has shared here on TBH, but that being said I would gladly listen to anything they had to say about deer management, and would welcome them to our campfire anytime.

With the cost of land these days, there is no way I would personally own a piece of property without a High Fence. I want to know without fail, that as long as these deer survive what mother nature dishes out, they will not be shot until they are 6.5 or 7.5. Unless they are culls, but that is a whole different topic!!!

I do not personally care for Pope and Young or Boone and Crockett because I do not like net score. If the deer grows it, in my opinion, he deserves credit for those kickers, stickers, and extra tines. To each his own...

Travis - what little I know about Pope and Young I doubt that will accept your deer as an entry into their record book, but it might be worth a shot. You have the only things that really matter about "Heart-Attack" the memories of your quest to get that fine animal, and the 196" of bone you and your family will be able to look at for the rest of your life.

[mesquitecountry]

Straight from the Pope & Young Webpage;
Fair Chase
From its beginnings, the Club has grown to epitomize fair chase and sportsmanship in hunting. This fair chase philosophy reaches to the very foundations of the hunting spirit; it remains a dominant factor in the personal hunting ethic of every responsible individual; it is key to bowhunting's future with deep roots in America's hunting heritage. Simply defined, fair chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal. It does, however, extend beyond the hunt itself; it is an attitude and a way of life based in a deep-seated respect for wildlife, for the environment, and for other individuals who share the bounty of this vast continent's natural resources.
__________________

i stand corrected it does say free ranging. This is all hypothetical like I said. My deer does not qualify because I use 80% letoff.


But keeping with the discussion if you have a ranch that does not spoon feed their deer, does not extract semen, does not sell commercial hunts, and does not pressure the deer and hunts in a sportsmanlike manner, are we to deny our fellow hunters the recognition for good sportsmanship that improve habitat, improve the genetics of a herd, and provide wildlife more than adequate nutrition and shield them from mother nature's effects while being stewards of the land and examples of good sportsmanship in the age that we all are defending our rights? All we here is alienation in our sport. It's sad.

I'm not taking offense for any opposition on this thread. But in a time where our sport has it's foot in the coffin we need to be pushing all sportsman and hunters that hunt legally with a passion for the wildlife and the environment we surround to the forefront (in no way am I saying that we are a leader or a good example but we do our best to provide for wildlife). My family lives to hunt and I guarantee we will always give back more than we take out. I am a member of many hunting orgs and groups and my comments do not reflect those orgs. I often disagree with some rulings but we all are working towards the same goal. Insured hunting for our children. I may disagree with all that oppose high fence or crossbows but you'll never see me back down against someone that is after our rights. At the end of the day we're all on the same team.

JTS,

This is a very good discussion and probably nothing will ever come of it other than good discussion. There will probably never be a definitive answer I'm just curious as to what we as a collective group think.

Sorry for the long posting rant!

[mesquitecountry]

Like I said this may never amount to more than a hill of beans but I know at the end of the day I can look into the mirror and know that what we're doing is right by us and by our maker. Though that might not be everyone's perogative but you've got to believe in something or you'll fall for everything.

[kyle1974]

Mesquite... the problem is how to distinguish your high fenced place, from the high fenced place with all the potential issues that some people dislike...(breeding, supplemental feeding, ear tagged deer, methamphetamine feeders, etc)

it would turn the application process into a nightmare. With all the people hunting in north america, there's probably just no really good way to positively identify fair chase high fenced hunting from canned hunting... because if I say there should be a 2500 acre minimum, some dude next to me will say 2000, and some guy over there will say 10,000. it's just too ambiguous.

[Kdog]

Pope and Young and Boone and Crocket gotta draw the line somewhere. They have chosen to put the line in a different place than you. People disagree, that's life.

I don't think you are going to think any less of your buck if they won't accept it though.

[mesquitecountry]

I agree wholeheartedly that it would be a nightmare to audit. Like I said earlier i'm not trying to change the world just bringing to light that there are some that hunt behind HF that dont engage in the debauchery of our sport. Yes there are one's that cast a shadow on our sport but the good way outnumbers the bad.


I in no way look down upon my deer or the hunt. It is the greatest hunt I've ever been on. Plus I got to share it with the person that is responsible for me picking up a gun then bow and every other weapon i've tried to master over the years. My DAD. NO record book or disqualification can take that away from me.



At one time I too stood on the outside of the fence looking up at like it was some demonic growth on the side of our proverbial hunting arse. Then I stepped through the gate and realized the same brush and same TEXAS deer were on the inside as the outside. Another day older and another day wiser. But like I said earlier it doesnt matter what you believe as long as you DO believe.

[Thumper]

The reason for our high fence was for one reason only. We are surrounded by crop and improved pasture land that is used for livestock. The year that the fence was erected (by previous owner) farmers brought friends and family out to their crop fields and slaughtered deer by the hundreds during deer season to protect their crop. So yes we have deterred an unmercilous onslaught on a deer herd. ?

You answered your own question and have the proof in your avatar. You can smoke it all you want but hi-fence is not fair chase.

[Ground Checkin' Heavies]

You answered your own question and have the proof in your avatar. You can smoke it all you want but hi-fence is not fair chase.

Go read my post on page 1 and tell me how it is not "fair chase?" I agree high fence is not "free roaming" but how is it not "fair chase?" How is it an advantage to the hunter?

[DamonJ]

How is it an advantage to the hunter?

You eliminate the competition from other hunters... That is one way!!

[Ground Checkin' Heavies]

You eliminate the competition from other hunters... That is one way!!

Since when is hunting a competition? High fence does not guarantee a kill, and just because someone else can't shoot him, doesn't mean that it is to the advantage of the landowner! Name an advantage that a hunter has over the deer!!

[Thumper]

We hunt 95+ days per season and always have someone in the area........ a 2600 acre ranch......?

To much hunting pressure. The deer will move to another pasture if not hi-fenced.

Who was it that had the avatar holding not one B&C but two B&C bucks arguing that hi-fence was fair chase?

[dangerous dan]

You mention above that you didn't qualify because of an 80% let-off. I thought you had to have 65% or less let-off, and if it was more you could enter the buck, but it would hacve as astrick beside the entry.

from P&Y site
Effective January 1, 2004, animals taken with bows have nominal percent of let-off greater than 65 percent shall be listed with an asterisk (*) in the Records. It is recognized that variations in draw length and/or draw weight can affect the percent of let-off on compound bows. For these reasons minor variations in let-off are acceptable.

[dangerous dan]

so wouldn't the 80% letoff qualify?

[Thumper]

At one time hi-fence entries were allowed into the P&Y Book and those entries are still listed in the book. The problem P&Y had with hi-fence was that before it came into play there were less than ten 200"+ non-typical entries in the history of P&Y. Then in one short 7 to 10 year period there were over 265 entries submitted, they found the increase was due to the hi-fence hunting.