Rules of Fair Chase for Pope and Young Clarification

[az2tx]

**** good question

This is one of the best questions I've ever seen posted and the responses are veried and intelligent, go figure.

P&Y just like B&C are scoring systems with some strange rules and I for one refuse to enter anything in either one. I have about 30 North American animals that will book, including at the time the #2 coues deer.

The rules should be changed but never will be because it would comprimise all the previous entries.

Rules like the net score, the animal is what it is and should get credit for everything it has and nets are for fish.
Drying period, think about it, will an animal that is stored in Florida have the shrinkage as one stored in Arizona? I think not.
Percentage of let off of a compound bow, I believe it is 60% How many bows are built with a 60% let off?
Baiting, now who kills a whitetail without baiting and is it ethical? Hunting over a feeder is baiting, water hole, food thrown out for a big Sask whitetail, trail leading to a corn field or pea patch, it is all baiting.
I took the # 3 kudu in Africa with a bow but by P&Y rules it wouldn't qualify(yes i know P7Y doesn't apply) it was taken in a 70,000 8 ft high fenced area.
FYI kudu clear an 8 ft fence like nothing

I could go on and on, but if you want to enter it P&Y go for it, or enter it in SCI, it is a better scoring system

[LukeDuke]

Another angle on the fuzzyness of the "game proof" concept -

People have mentioned deer going over and under high fences - a foreman for a ranch that I work with watched a 200lb plus buck in a breeding pen go THROUGH the fence last March. I saw the hole and what it did for his now highly deformed rack. Funny thing was the gate being open for his intended release about 20 yards down the fence line as he made his way out.

[venado]

Just for info Travis. I'm a scorer for Buckmasters. Buckmasters is very different from P&Y and B&C. An enclosure less than 500 acres will prohibit entry. That of course does not apply to your place. I don't recall what the spread was on your buck but if it were say 22 and your gross score was 195, your Buckmasters score would be about 173 (spread does not count). A score of 173 would place your buck about #35 in their 2005 record book for the compound bow category. If you have an interest in having me score the deer (I'm in Seguin) please let me know.

[mesquitecountry]

Like I said I really dont care if it enters.

But I will make this perfectly clear on our ranch. Our deer are free ranging. They are not corralled and hand fed then released to shoot. I've seen 5 deer this year that have never been seen before. A 170"+ buck is roaming around our place that we've only seen twice this year at 400 yards has not crossed a trail camera or a hunter. We hunt 95+ days per season and always have someone in the area where he lurks.

So to answer your question stupid. I do believe that a 2600 acre ranch where there are not DMP's and is not setup for commercial gain and is hunted by hunters is as Fair Chase as it gets.

The reason for our high fence was for one reason only. We are surrounded by crop and improved pasture land that is used for livestock. The year that the fence was erected (by previous owner) farmers brought friends and family out to their crop fields and slaughtered deer by the hundreds during deer season to protect their crop. So yes we have deterred an unmercilous onslaught on a deer herd.

If Theodore Roosevelt was alive today I'd take pride in taking him to our ranch to hunt and to show him how we keep with our heritage and take pride in our wildlife and habitat. I guarantee there are few ranches in the State of Texas that puts as much work, money, and effort into insuring that our deer have the best habitat and free range as possible.


Though many people have brought up excellent points against I have no mallous towards B&C or P&Y. I dont care if my buck gets entered or not. My point is that for something that is so decisive you would think the organization wouldnt leave it up to the scorer's disgression.

I have a silver class black buck that I've never entered either. So I really dont care one way or the other.

We hunt no different than you or the next guy. We hunt for the sport for the food that it provides our family as well as all of the meat we donate to needy families in our area.

By my interpetation I do hunt fair chase. And if an organization that is apparently so adamant about its rules but cant define how can they tell me what I am or am not?

[DamonJ]

But I will make this perfectly clear on our ranch. Our deer are free ranging

You can tell yourself this all you want, but if it were true they would not be "YOUR" deer..

[bowhunterhelm]

Travis-with all due respect you are getting free range and fair chase mixed up. Your deer may have been hunted fair chase as you define it. Fair chase is open to interpretation.

Free range is not, your deer are not free ranging. They are confined to your ranch.

Not throwing stones and I'd have shot the deer given the chance any day.

He may have been hunted fair chase as you define it, but it wasn't free ranging.

[Africanbowhunter]

P& Y does not accept Blackbuck and usually wont accept an game entry if a firearm was present during the harvest BTW

[Smart]

P& Y does not accept Blackbuck and usually wont accept an game entry if a firearm was present during the harvest BTW

Where did you get he was trying to enter the blackbuck into P&Y??

I'd be willing to bet it was ROE....

[mesquitecountry]

Right on Smart!


Helm,

Yes you are correct. Our deer are fair chase. That's what this is about. If you read the P&Y site it clearly says nothing about free range.

Also my deer will not qualify because I have 80% letoff.

Though deer behind high fences are deterred from leaving there is not a fence made of wire and steel that is unescapable. Does anyone argue that?


Let me ask this question.


Do you think the founders of the P&Y and B&C would high fence their property if the neighbors were killing deer the moment they stepped out as a pests??

[JTS]

LOL...I have a friend that high fenced his place about 2 years ago and is bringing in new genetics, doing DMP pens, etc. One of his neighbors was very unhappy when he high fenced and has been digging big holes under the fence and piling corn on his side of the fence at the holes.

I think if I was to spend 12-15k a mile for a fence, I'd have made it impossible for a neighbor to touch it. Why did he not build about 10' into his property instead of exactly on the property line, otherwise his neighbor is trespassing and deserves jail time if he did build inside his property line.

[JeffJ]

I think if I was to spend 12-15k a mile for a fence, I'd have made it impossible for a neighbor to touch it. Why did he not build about 10' into his property instead of exactly on the property line, otherwise his neighbor is trespassing and deserves jail time if he did build inside his property line.

I think he actually would be trespassing even if the fence were directly on top of the fence line. For the previously mentioned holes under the fence to be effective he would have to trespass to create a passable hole.

[JTS]

I think he actually would be trespassing even if the fence were directly on top of the fence line. For the previously mentioned holes under the fence to be effective he would have to trespass to create a passable hole.

Just a technicality, but I agree with you. Now why build a perfectly good high fence on the property line if the neighbor did not pitch in for half? That neighbor can now tie into it in the future and save that expense on his own high fence now. Surely this guy mentioned was smarter than that and not share his fence with a neighbor that a) did not pay half and b) is an a-hole.

[kyle1974]

Let me ask this question.


Do you think the founders of the P&Y and B&C would high fence their property if the neighbors were killing deer the moment they stepped out as a pests??

I think you're just trying to justify your own situation. We all know that high fences are put up for one reason, and that's to grow larger deer. They're not put up to "preserve free ranging habitat". More often than not, they're put up to grow the most AB-normal, freaks of nature that a human could ever comprehend. While I'm not adamantly against all high fence hunting, and have really no problem with several thousand acres ranches and larger high fenced.... where do you draw the line? that's probably the problem P&Y and B&C have. If 1000 acres is good, why not 998, and then why not 945? It's a slippery slope.


I might be wrong, but I just don't see 8 foot fences, deer with ear tags, protien feeders per 100 acres, someone manually retrieving sperm from a huge buck and impregnating breeder does for release as "free range" (not saying this is your place, just general comments)

I also would be willing to bet P&Y didn't think there would be hundreds of
120" (and ultimatley had to increase it) deer shot with a bow every year...That's probably why they came up with that figure

[JTS]

tough questions with lots of opinions... bottom line I think is that the deer made the horns, not the hunter, not the fence, not the food. I could feed two different deer in a fence and neither one would look the exact same. Give the animal the credit. Now about the genetically mixed up brutes? Who knows.. how can you filter out some of that in the equation?

BTW, I love hunting.. high, low, feed, no feed.. it dont matter to me as long as I deem it fair for the animal, i.e. thick brush, plenty of ways to escape me even if in a high fence. Common sense type stuff, ya know?

[Widowmaker]

Right on Smart!


Helm,

Yes you are correct. Our deer are fair chase. That's what this is about. If you read the P&Y site it clearly says nothing about free range.[/B]

Straight from the Pope & Young Webpage;
Fair Chase
From its beginnings, the Club has grown to epitomize fair chase and sportsmanship in hunting. This fair chase philosophy reaches to the very foundations of the hunting spirit; it remains a dominant factor in the personal hunting ethic of every responsible individual; it is key to bowhunting's future with deep roots in America's hunting heritage. Simply defined, fair chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal. It does, however, extend beyond the hunt itself; it is an attitude and a way of life based in a deep-seated respect for wildlife, for the environment, and for other individuals who share the bounty of this vast continent's natural resources.