Finer Points of Reloading Questions

[M16]

Run them through a factory crimp die. Lot of discussion for and against this but it's an easy way to help standardize tension and start pressures. Makes an noticeable difference in my 7-30 Waters.

Maybe in other actions to keep bullets from being pushed into the case. But oh hell no in a bolt action for neck tension

[Mike D]

Thanks Mike D! What shoulder bump gauges do you recommend?

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I have Whidden bump gauges.


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[Stick1]

Back in the land of cell coverage, but it looks like most of it has already been covered. Its worth mentioning that if you are primarily shooting 200 yards and under, all of this is a huge waste of effort. You just wont see any of the benefits. These steps are all about setting up consistency, which is independent of accuracy. We've probably all shot some ridiculously small 100 yard groups with terrible velocity numbers, factory ammo, etc. My smallest ever 100 yd group measured deep in the zero's but had an ES of over 100fps. I'd put that load up against absolutely anything at 100, but it was a solid 2.5 MOA load at best at 500. Haha. Once you get the foundation laid for consistency(small ES/SD), you can easily tune for accuracy........and know it will actually hold up well down range.

Just know that every time you move brass it will work harden. Annealing will slow this process down tremendously, but will not eliminate it completely. So best bet is to move it as little as possible to achieve your desired results and keep up with your annealing. Do what you can to keep the brass in the same or similar state for as long as possible. Make sure you are rotating your cases so they will have the same number of firings/work cycles on them. The trail that leads down to the bottom of the rabbit hole looks something like this....

1. Turn necks. NONE are going to be perfect out of the box on any brass made via the drawing process. Some will be WAY better than others, so start with the good stuff. It should only require a skim cut to clean up the good stuff. Anywhere from .0005 to .0015. 21st century makes some great neck turning set-ups.

2. We anneal after every firing. Some folks do every other or every 3rd firing. Different brass may require different levels of attention. For example, ADG seems to work harden quicker than Lapua in my experience. Test it with a few pieces and see what works for you and your annealing set-up. Stick to it when you find what works.

3. Size correctly, and completely, but only as much as you need I'm in Mike's camp above. I like to see .003 shoulder bump on most cases and .004 on the big stuff. A crush fit or firm bolt close on the brass will almost always yield poor number spreads across a group. Mic EVERY case as it comes off your press. A lot of folks will be surprised how much drift you will see.......especially those not annealing. It will also change with subsequent work cycles. You will be able to see the work hardening progress since it will manifest itself as "spring back". Shooting for .003 will almost always keep you around .002 to .004 if you're getting drift. The cheap Hornady "Headspace Guage Comparator" set works just fine for this.
Shoulder bump is only one dimension, though. Make sure your dies are also sizing the shoulder diameter and especially the web to the correct spec as well. Don't assume they are. Measure it and verify. Very common that commercial dies fall short in that regard. Many are taken out of spec in the final polishing step before they leave the factory.
That leaves only the neck to address. In a perfect world, we'd all have custom one-piece dies made to our exact specs including the actual brass we're shooting. This option all but eliminates any run out. But it's not a realistic option for most. Commercial versions of this WILL oversize/over work your brass. Bushing dies are the next best answer. Choose a bushing that sizes the neck to about .002 under your desired NECK TENSION number. Bushing dies give you micro-control over your neck tension. The trade-off with bushing dies is they generally create a little more run out. No worries, we’ll fix it.

3B. Setting final neck tension with a mandrel. Several good things happen here. One is we will be able to set tension exactly where we want it. Even if we are dealing with some work hardening, we still have control by stepping up the mandrel in .0005 increments to address it. We are also pre-loading/stressing the brass in the same direction the bullet will when seated, which will increase uniformity. Also, any imperfections or high spots will be pushed from the inside to the outside of the case where they are less likely to matter. Good mandrels will come with a die/holder that allows the mandrel to free float or find center………this will help reduce any small runout our bushing dies or press may have induced. A standard expander ball set up pulls away from the case and relies on multiple sets of threads and their alignment(good luck) while exerting all of the force in the direction with the least support of the case itself. The mandrel addresses all of those shortcomings. I like K&M mandrels. They are inexpensive and made to your specs in about a week. I usually get .001, .002, .003. and .004 versions. Test them all, one will stand out over the others. I like Imperial dry neck lube for use with the mandrels.

This is about all I feel like typing tonight! Mostly I’ve just regurgitated what has already been said anyway This is a good discussion with lots of other points yet to be covered……hope it keeps going.

[Leverhunter]

Maybe in other actions to keep bullets from being pushed into the case. But oh hell no in a bolt action for neck tension

Oh hell yes, action type doesn't matter. The 7-30 Waters is a single shot, I've used it in bolts and lever action also. Sometimes it helps sometimes not. It helps even out inconsistent case neck tension.

[M16]

Some really good shooters say that a little runout is not that big of a concern. Even having up to .0015 doesn’t make a difference in group size with a really well put together accurate rifle. Less is probably better but does it really make a difference?

[M16]

Oh hell yes, action type doesn't matter. The 7-30 Waters is a single shot, I've used it in bolts and lever action also. Sometimes it helps sometimes not. It helps even out inconsistent case neck tension.

I’m interested in what type of equipment you have to test your theory. Do you have a force measure press? How do you measure neck tension after crimping?

I’d fix the inconsistent neck tension problem.

[Hotrodd]

Really liking this discussion! Lots of good info, the one thing I’m hearing as a first step Is to consistently anneal your brass. Been reloading for some time now, been looking into getting an annealing machine to help with neck tension, I think this thread has talked me into it.

[trophy8]

Do not crimp.

Forget the factory instructions.

Buy a comparator and set your FL sizer to bump the shoulder just enough to chamber easily. .001-.003 is fine.

I run the expander. Redding usually. Can it get better? Yes. But I shoot tiny groups and single digit SDs.

I don’t turn necks. That **** is for the birds.

I seat primers with an RCBS hand primer. I like to feel each one seat. I do need to upgrade that.

I don’t focus on trim length much but I do trim on occasion when needed.

Uniform primer pockets. Clean them with the same tool.

Debur flash holes if needed but lapua and Norma isn’t needed. Hornady is bad about burrs.

[jstanton]

Robert thank you for the detailed response. I have some follow up questions though.

When talking about turning the neck, is it the outside, inside, or both?

Regarding the sizing process and neck tension. Are you saying to FL size and bump the shoulder, then use a bushing die to set the neck tension .002" under desired, and then use the mandrels to set final neck tension?

Just to clarify what "under" desired neck tension means. If my desired neck tension, for my 6.5cm, is .262 I would select a bushing that sets it at .260. Then use the mandrels to expand it out to the desired .262?

You also mentioned the bushing dies can create run out but that "we'll fix that". How do you correct run out?

Thanks in advance!

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[jstanton]

Do not crimp.

Forget the factory instructions.

Buy a comparator and set your FL sizer to bump the shoulder just enough to chamber easily. .001-.003 is fine.

I run the expander. Redding usually. Can it get better? Yes. But I shoot tiny groups and single digit SDs.

I don’t turn necks. That **** is for the birds.

I seat primers with an RCBS hand primer. I like to feel each one seat. I do need to upgrade that.

I don’t focus on trim length much but I do trim on occasion when needed.

Uniform primer pockets. Clean them with the same tool.

Debur flash holes if needed but lapua and Norma isn’t needed. Hornady is bad about burrs.

I do not crimp. I seem to remember reading Bryan Litz say to never crimp Bergers anyway. I assume that applies to any VLD type bullet without a cannelure?

Picked up the comparator set today.

Been looking at the Frankford Arsenal Platinum Series Perfect Seat Hand Priming Tool as an upgrade.

I just clean the primer pockets and flash hole. Should I uniform the primer pocket too?

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[trophy8]

I do not crimp. I seem to remember reading Bryan Litz say to never crimp Bergers anyway. I assume that applies to any VLD type bullet without a cannelure?

Picked up the comparator set today.

Been looking at the Frankford Arsenal Platinum Series Perfect Seat Hand Priming Tool as an upgrade.

I just clean the primer pockets and flash hole. Should I uniform the primer pocket too?

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I mainly use the uniforming tool from Sinclair to clean. Norma and lapua both are very uniform as it is.

[Leverhunter]

I’m interested in what type of equipment you have to test your theory. Do you have a force measure press? How do you measure neck tension after crimping?

I’d fix the inconsistent neck tension problem.

The crimp die is sometimes an easy way to fix it. My steps are almost identical to the op’s original post then follow with a crimp. I don’t have anything to measure tension other than measuring group size. Sometimes it will correct that occasional flyer and for $25 it’s worth a try.

[Stick1]

Your bushing die will handle all of the body, neck sizing and shoulder bump in one pass. The mandrel will bring the neck diameter back up to proper dimensions in a separate step. The mandrel will also help straighten up a little runout. If you want your inside neck diameter to be .262, you would want a bushing that gives you an inside diameter of about .260 and a mandrel that pushes it back out to .262. You will need to account for spring back when choosing the actual size of both tools. There is a recent video on YouTube by “winning in the wind” that does a great job of explaining the yield properties of brass. As far as neck turning, I only turn outside and only as little as it takes to get clean up. Yes, it’s a pain in the ***. But it has dropped numbers significantly for me in every case I’ve done it. Running a seating force guage on an arbor press will clearly show how much even .001 of neck tension can change things.

[Stick1]

Some really good shooters say that a little runout is not that big of a concern. Even having up to .0015 doesn’t make a difference in group size with a really well put together accurate rifle. Less is probably better but does it really make a difference?

I think they’re right😁 I can sometimes see it beginning to show in my groups at around .003 and for sure at .004. I’m not the best group shooter in the world, so others could probably see it sooner. I bet CB could shed some light on that subject, given his benchrest experience. What I do know is I keep a runout tool at the shop to help solve accuracy mysteries. It’s measured a lot of factory and customer hand loads over the years. I’m going to say it’s pretty rare that it’s measured factory loads that stay under .005 and not very many customer loads that stay under .003 for 10 rounds. I feel confident that I can use it to sort a box of factory ammo and predict which groups will shoot tighter.

[M16]

Great information Robert! One more factor with neck tension. Cold weld. How long does it take after loading before cold welding can affect neck tension? Some shooters seat their bullets long and then finish seating them right before they shoot. Some molly coat the necks before seating. Certainly not much of a difference in most situations but everything makes a difference at long ranges. I’m wondering how much cold welding affects factory ammunition that may be a year or two old.