Muzzleloaders ?

[deer farmer]

ProHunter and Encore, I love shooting my Black powder rifles because I get to play with the loads. My conclusion is Blackhorn 209 powder is the only one I like, at 120 grains. With a Winchester shotgun primer cause Blackhorn needs a little hotter start. And Hornady 300 grain sabot. I like the Barnes Sabots but they are hard to come by. With a 4" drop at 200yds, so I keep my shots @ 100+-. And with Blackhorn 209 I can shoot a second time if I have too. The books say 1865 FPS with Barnes and 1850 with Hornady @ 100 grams of Blackhorn and 2000FPS with 120 grains.

[Jeremy7306]

How do they match up against pigs? I've pondered the idea of getting a muzzleloader a few times, they seem really fun to shoot just I don't know much about them.

[brrdnk]

I shoot a CVA Optima Pro V2. Use the Blackhorn 209 powder 115gn and Barnes Tez bullets 250gn with cci primers. Gives me my best accuracy. Shot a Buffalo cow last year at right at 100yrds clean pass through, killed a doe this year in Arkansas at 125yrds.

[Bayouboy]

Shot my cva wolf muzzle loader @200 yards for the 1st time last week and it Sucks. Dropped 15" between 100 and 200. I'm using 100 grains of pyrodex and 250 grain Thompson center shock wave sabots. I have a Nikon bdc and it actually lined up with the 3rd circle down! That's way too much rainbow for me.

It sighted in 1.5 high @ 50 to be on @100. Slow and heavy. I'm gonna limit it to 100 yards. Might go 125 and hold at the top of the back.

I was really disappointed in the 200 yard drop (all 3 did the same and grouped about 4") so it's kinda sucky IMO. Obviously nothing like the 308 or 270!

For a little over a $200 muzzleloader I don't know if you can expect a whole lot more? The big thing is always remember to seat your pellets/projectile to the same exact spot and use the same primers and projectiles. A regularly cleaned barrel helps also.

The areas I hunt in East Tx or usually 75 yd shots are less so it's great for my areas. If I hunt the cutovers and bottoms it's 40-50 yd shots.

If you are wanting something that stretches out over 100 yds with more accuracy you may want to go with a Thompson or CVA Optima.

[elkbowhunter]

so if a muzzleloader can kill out to 200 yards, remind me again why its not called a rifle? Did they call them rifles back in the day. Im trying to understand the reasoning of why they are not rifles. Not bashing now....but inquiring.

[Bayouboy]

How do they match up against pigs? I've pondered the idea of getting a muzzleloader a few times, they seem really fun to shoot just I don't know much about them.

You can learn just about everything you need to know from youtube and google. I researched and learned on my own. Don't waste your time asking anyone at various shops or stores about them. Most know nothing.

It's trial and error just like learning about bows. Don't be afraid to take it apart and try various ammo etc. Seems every brand or model has a certain type that it likes. CVA's seem to work pretty well with powerbelt ammo.

[Bayouboy]

so if a muzzleloader can kill out to 200 yards, remind me again why its not called a rifle? Did they call them rifles back in the day. Im trying to understand the reasoning of why they are not rifles. Not bashing now....but inquiring.

Maybe because you load from the muzzle?

[Uncle Saggy]

so if a muzzleloader can kill out to 200 yards, remind me again why its not called a rifle? Did they call them rifles back in the day. Im trying to understand the reasoning of why they are not rifles. Not bashing now....but inquiring.

Not to derail thread, I'll give my opinion quick. Modern in-line "rifle" ruined our "blackpowder" season. Yes, the true patched ball and black powder with iron sights can kill at 200

[Bayouboy]

This article kinda has me scratching my head .
Everything he mentions I gave found to be totally opposite.


Powerbelt Bullets

By Randy Wakeman


Powerbelt bullets, manufactured by Big Bore Express, have been around for a long time now. They were known as "Black Belt Bullets," available in plain lead versions as well as with a thin copper-wash, as thin a copper plating as you may have seen on some .22 rimfire bullets.

CVA may offer some questionable guns, but what this Spanish owned importer does have an affinity for is loud, hyperbole driven marketing. CVA / BPI / Winchester Muzzleloading / New Frontier Muzzleloading rifles all come from the same inferior source. But "Powerbelt" bullets are made in Idaho.

Contrary to what the ads say about CVA Powerbelts, they are not the "most advanced" muzzleloading bullets. They are also not the "hardest hitting," nor do they have "all of the advantages of sabots."

The fact of the matter is, ballistically, bore sized projectiles are the very worst muzzleloading projectiles available. Comparing a .452 or .452 saboted pistol bullet to a "fifty caliber" bore-sized conical makes even the poorest pistol bullet look like a shooting powerhouse. It is fundamental that when comparing projectiles of similar weight and shape, the smaller caliber bullet is always superior in sectional density and almost always superior in ballistic coefficient. In other words, it flies better and penetrates deeper, losing less of its terminal striking force than a bore sized bullet.

Far from advanced, the Powerbelt is merely a pure lead conical. It is old wine in a new bottle, doing very little that the Minie balls of the Civil War did not do. The lighter versions do less.

Pure lead can be scratched with your fingernail; drop a Powerbelt and it easily dents. Powerbelts, like all lead conicals, shorten and belly out upon firing. Powerbelts shoot exactly the same whether the green hula hoop skirt is attached or detached.

They are simply slip fit conicals. Their sole benefit being that they need no messy lubrication of Crisco or other bullet lube, as the copper plating takes care of that. Unfortunately the better selling, lighter Powerbelts (245 and 295 grain) are the worst performers on game. The 348, 405, and 444 grain bullets are far more effective.

Powerbelts work best at moderate velocities and ranges. Doc White has extolled the virtues of heavy pure lead conicals for many years. What they do best is expand well at relatively low impact velocity, and they hardly need a hollow point (or a plastic "Aerotip" shoved into that hollow point) to initiate expansion. But, muzzleloading marketing being what it is, things seem to sell well if brightly and colorfully packaged--and you don't mind lying a bit.

Their primary benefit is easy loading. Otherwise, these overpriced and ballistically inferior slugs wouldn't have much sales appeal.

The 405 and 444 grain renditions are easily the better bullets, doing their best work with loose powder. Unfortunately, CVA barrels are not rated for bullets this heavy. It is unwise to use heavy conicals in a muzzleloader with an extruded barreled. They are better reserved for use in frontloaders with high quality barrels, such as Knight, Thompson, and Savage.

The facts speak for themselves. From any ballistic performance standpoint, Powerbelts make Hornady XTPs and Barnes MZ-Expanders in MMP sabots look like God's gift to muzzleloading. The day of the deer-crippling round ball has come and gone. Now, with the advent of Triple 7 and other high-energy propellants, the dismal trajectories of conicals means that their days as popular hunting projectiles are probably numbered.

It is only fair to note that, for "honey-hole" or "boiler room" shots on deer inside 120 yards, the 348 and 405 grain bullets have done well, and have given acceptable field accuracy in Austin & Halleck, Knight, and Savage muzzleloaders with 100 grains of T7 FFg loose powder. Where sabots are not an option, the 348 and 405 grain Powerbelts have a good track record when used within their limitations.



Back to the Muzzleloader Information Page
Copyright 2005 by Randy Wakeman. All rights reserved.

[Bayouboy]

Not to derail thread, I'll give my opinion quick. Modern in-line "rifle" ruined our "blackpowder" season. Yes, the true patched ball and black powder with iron sights can kill at 200

Trad hunters said the same thing not that many years ago about the compounds. So, it's nothing unusual for that opinion to present itself.
Not really sure how it "ruined" it though?

Did it ruin it because it became easier with in-line and more people started taking advantage of the extra time in the woods?

[Uncle Saggy]

so if a muzzleloader can kill out to 200 yards, remind me again why its not called a rifle? Did they call them rifles back in the day. Im trying to understand the reasoning of why they are not rifles. Not bashing now....but inquiring.

Ok. Modern in-lines ruined the traditional blackpowder season as we knew it. They should be considered rifles!

[Uncle Saggy]

Sorry for double answer

[ted_kennedys_liver]

100 yds but wouldnt hesitate to go 200 with some more range time. I shoot a TC Triumph, appr 100 grains by volume (i weigh my charge but cant recall what it is but it is in the 100gr by volume range) of blackhorn 209, remington sts primers, 300gr gold dot/speer deep curls with harvestor crushed rib sabbots - 1/4" moa at 100 yds. TC Triumphs are known for their very tight barrels so finding the right bullet sabbot combo can take a bit. Then you have to factor in what charge and primer it likes. No different than a regular rifle.

Cleaning consistency and with the correct ingredients is crucial to accuracy of these things. It was a brutal process but I finaly got it after 2 years.

Love BH 209 - can shoot up to 10 times without cleaning but keep flash hole clean with a pick between shots.

[Uncle Saggy]

Trad hunters said the same thing not that many years ago about the compounds. So, it's nothing unusual for that opinion to present itself.
Not really sure how it "ruined" it though?

Did it ruin it because it became easier with in-line and more people started taking advantage of the extra time in the woods?

You nailed it on the head! Woods used to be totally empty. I'm all for in-lines if that's what someone wants.
Would like to to see a weekend put aside for us BP no scope guys

[Bayouboy]

You nailed it on the head! Woods used to be totally empty. I'm all for in-lines if that's what someone wants.
Would like to to see a weekend put aside for us BP no scope guys

I see no prob with that. Primitive only for trad and B P for a few days.