Extreme f.o.c or heavy arrow

[enewman]

Just so I get all this straight, you believe that a 400gr arrow is superior to a 700gr arrow and you can kill elephants with it? I hear you talk about kinetic energy and momentum. Honestly, I don't care which one is responsible for penetration. I know that going from a 380 gr arrow to a 560gr arrow the penetration difference is night and day. Are you saying arrow weight doesn't matter? Just trying to see where we differ and what we have in common. I believe we both feel like a 470gr to 520gr might be the sweet spot for penetration and good projectory. Maybe we have common ground there?

I plan to click on your links and give a look.

Hahaha. No, I can see you don’t understand so I’m good. By the way heavy will all ways out perform a lighter arrow shot from the SAME BOW. when all other factors are equal. The elephant that joel killed was with an arrow north of 1000gr. Only an idiot whould hunt an elephant with a 400gr arrow.

I don’t know if I should write any more. As you are not understanding.

But I will try. What causes a heavy arrow out penetrate at Target it has more ke. Ranch fairy just showed all of this. Again every person should know this.

They also stated that as hunters we should look at what is going on at impact and not at bow. 100% WE SHOULD BE DOING THIS.

So, hopefully this gets that section cleared up. But let me state it one more time. SHOOTING TWO ARROWS FROM SAME BOW THE HEAVY ARROW WILL HAVE MORE KE AT TARGET SO IT WILL OUT PENETRATE.

Now we look at physics. If two arrows of unequal mass but equal momentum at target the lighter arrow will put penetrate. That is pure physics. I not taling about hunting. I’m talking about physics and what happens in a MEDUIM WITH EQUAL RETARDATON FORCE. That is how we test (Scientific testing).

Physics tell us if equal ke and unequal mass if the medium HAS AN EQUAL RETARDATION FORCE. They will be equal in stoping distance. That is what Dave holt showed. That is physics. Why I’m I talking about it. Because people want to say momentum is what gives us the ability to penetrate. That is false and goes against physics.


Now as I have already wrote this in a post above. Why do we need a heavy arrow when bone is hit. We need mass to have the inertia so the impulse will be short to break the bone.

So, do we need a heavy arrow to hunt. All depends on how well you can place your arrow. There are lots of people killing big game with arrows at 500gr and average game with sub 500gr.

So, what does all of this mean. Nothing to you as you have already said you do not care about ke or momentum. Then all you need todo is look at mass.

So if you do nothing to change your bow and you want to shoot the same broadhead how do you increase penetration. YOU INCREASE YOUR MASS. There would be zero reason to look at ke or momentum. MASS is all you need to know.

[Beargrasstx]

Hahaha. No, I can see you don’t understand so I’m good. By the way heavy will all ways out perform a lighter arrow shot from the SAME BOW. when all other factors are equal. The elephant that joel killed was with an arrow north of 1000gr. Only an idiot whould hunt an elephant with a 400gr arrow.

Have a good one.

So what is your big gripe then with ranch fairy promoting heavy arrows? Seems you agree they penetrate more. Are you up n arms arguing over whether it is FOC, KE, or momentum being the cause?

What is your gripe?

What do you hope to accomplish with all this?

We all understand shot placement is key. duh. Bigger wound will lead to higher volume of blood spilled. duh. So what is in your crawl?

By the way, I am just trying to understand and I know I am not the brightest fellow in the world but consider me practice in your mission to help the 'masses' get enlightened.

[Beargrasstx]

Hahaha. No, I can see you don’t understand so I’m good. By the way heavy will all ways out perform a lighter arrow shot from the SAME BOW. when all other factors are equal. The elephant that joel killed was with an arrow north of 1000gr. Only an idiot whould hunt an elephant with a 400gr arrow.

I don’t know if I should write any more. As you are not understanding.

But I will try. What causes a heavy arrow out penetrate at Target it has more ke. Ranch fairy just showed all of this. Again every person should know this.

They also stated that as hunters we should look at what is going on at impact and not at bow. 100% WE SHOULD BE DOING THIS.

So, hopefully this gets that section cleared up. But let me state it one more time. SHOOTING TWO ARROWS FROM SAME BOW THE HEAVY ARROW WILL HAVE MORE KE AT TARGET SO IT WILL OUT PENETRATE.

Now we look at physics. If two arrows of unequal mass but equal momentum at target the lighter arrow will put penetrate. That is pure physics. I not taling about hunting. I’m talking about physics and what happens in a MEDUIM WITH EQUAL RETARDATON FORCE. That is how we test (Scientific testing).

Physics tell us if equal ke and unequal mass if the medium HAS AN EQUAL RETARDATION FORCE. They will be equal in stoping distance. That is what Dave holt showed. That is physics. Why I’m I talking about it. Because people want to say momentum is what gives us the ability to penetrate. That is false and goes against physics.


Now as I have already wrote this in a post above. Why do we need a heavy arrow when bone is hit. We need mass to have the inertia so the impulse will be short to break the bone.

So, do we need a heavy arrow to hunt. All depends on how well you can place your arrow. There are lots of people killing big game with arrows at 500gr and average game with sub 500gr.

So, what does all of this mean. Nothing to you as you have already said you do not care about ke or momentum. Then all you need todo is look at mass.

So if you do nothing to change your bow and you want to shoot the same broadhead how do you increase penetration. YOU INCREASE YOUR MASS. There would be zero reason to look at ke or momentum. MASS is all you need to know.

Not that hard... I agree with you on the MASS. No reason to be a jerk about it. Hope that wasn't too exhausting for you to type.

[enewman]

As far as me testing. Yes I am. But I’m looking at a different test media. I’m looking at sand. Problem I’m having is I don’t have enough retarding force so the arrow just passes through. So,I’m looking at a way to compress the sand to add more retarding force. I tried adding more resistance at the front of the target but I could not get a constant repeat on penetration. That means it is not a reliable test. Hopefully compressing the sand will solve the problem. Other than to compress the sand I will also have to strengthen the side walls of the box.

Now one thing I did see was the shock wave as the arrow hit the sand. Wished I had a slow motion camera. That would have been very interesting to see.

[enewman]

Not that hard... I agree with you on the MASS. No reason to be a jerk about it. Hope that wasn't too exhausting for you to type.

Not at all. Just setting here watching tv

[enewman]

So what is your big gripe then with ranch fairy promoting heavy arrows? Seems you agree they penetrate more. Are you up n arms arguing over whether it is FOC, KE, or momentum being the cause?

What is your gripe?

What do you hope to accomplish with all this?

We all understand shot placement is key. duh. Bigger wound will lead to higher volume of blood spilled. duh. So what is in your crawl?

By the way, I am just trying to understand and I know I am not the brightest fellow in the world but consider me practice in your mission to help the 'masses' get enlightened.

Haha. I’m good with that. Thanks and have a great night. It’s bed time for me.

By the way I think whAt the ranch fairy is doing is great. The test I can’t wait to see is the velocity through a animal. That test should show how some broadheads eat lots of energy.

[Beargrasstx]

I would like to see Dave Holt test this at different distances as well. The arrow with the most mass, KE, and momentum penetrated less than the lighter arrow at 16 yds. I would like to see more distances.

edited- seems our responses are a step slow to each other. I see your other messages while I had typed this one.

Have a good night

[critter69]

I am not on the mathematical part of all this but I do real life testing. I know not long ago Enewman was all about “ heavy” and ashy, we exchanged “ words” occasionally. I see he has finally come around. What I get out of that video, is it don’t seem to matter if those guys are shooting heavy arrows, high foc, or light arrows. They can’t hit the target consistently at that distance and should NEVER be shooting at a live animal at that distance. If you can’t hit it you can’t kill it, no matter what your shooting at it.

[RLB]

I pull string
I release string
Something dies

All the science I need.

[IkemanTX]

Extreme f.o.c or heavy arrow

Hahaha. No, I can see you don’t understand so I’m good. By the way heavy will all ways out perform a lighter arrow shot from the SAME BOW. when all other factors are equal. The elephant that joel killed was with an arrow north of 1000gr. Only an idiot whould hunt an elephant with a 400gr arrow.

I don’t know if I should write any more. As you are not understanding.

But I will try. What causes a heavy arrow out penetrate at Target it has more ke. Ranch fairy just showed all of this. Again every person should know this.

They also stated that as hunters we should look at what is going on at impact and not at bow. 100% WE SHOULD BE DOING THIS.

So, hopefully this gets that section cleared up. But let me state it one more time. SHOOTING TWO ARROWS FROM SAME BOW THE HEAVY ARROW WILL HAVE MORE KE AT TARGET SO IT WILL OUT PENETRATE.

Now we look at physics. If two arrows of unequal mass but equal momentum at target the lighter arrow will put penetrate. That is pure physics. I not taling about hunting. I’m talking about physics and what happens in a MEDUIM WITH EQUAL RETARDATON FORCE. That is how we test (Scientific testing).

Physics tell us if equal ke and unequal mass if the medium HAS AN EQUAL RETARDATION FORCE. They will be equal in stoping distance. That is what Dave holt showed. That is physics. Why I’m I talking about it. Because people want to say momentum is what gives us the ability to penetrate. That is false and goes against physics.


Now as I have already wrote this in a post above. Why do we need a heavy arrow when bone is hit. We need mass to have the inertia so the impulse will be short to break the bone.

So, do we need a heavy arrow to hunt. All depends on how well you can place your arrow. There are lots of people killing big game with arrows at 500gr and average game with sub 500gr.

So, what does all of this mean. Nothing to you as you have already said you do not care about ke or momentum. Then all you need todo is look at mass.

So if you do nothing to change your bow and you want to shoot the same broadhead how do you increase penetration. YOU INCREASE YOUR MASS. There would be zero reason to look at ke or momentum. MASS is all you need to know.

So… after arguing with me, for an entire 2 days, about shooting heavier arrows you drop this line….. (and I’ll use the same grammar mistakes to be as accurate as possible)

QUOTE: “By the way heavy will all ways out perform a lighter arrow shot from the SAME BOW. when all other factors are equal”

That line literally just made my entire argument (which you vehemently argued against).

Edit: to make this real elementary…. if I am shooting the same bow for all my setups…. According to your statement quoted above, a heavier arrow will ALWAYS outperform a lighter one. So…. the fact that I built a well tuned EXTRA-HEAVY arrow for my specific bow means that it will ALWAYS outperform a lighter one when shot out of my specific bow….. which is exactly what I have been arguing all along.

When this bow was shooting bare shaft bullet holes at 380 grains, I only penetrated 75-80% of the way through my “The Block” target depth… when I started shooting my new 710 grain setup, the same bow (set at the same weight) would stick 6-8 inches of arrow out the back. I literally punched holes through drywall in my garage. I literally went from 100% of my shooting being my target in my garage, to 0% because of consistent drywall damage. I may be a layman… but that, to me, seems like more penetration.

I don’t give two poops about how my bow (and it’s best arrow setup) compares to Tommy’s bow (and his best arrow setup)… I’m not buying Tommy’s bow, I’m optimizing mine. If MY bow, set at MY weight, with MY draw length…. Shoots better, and penetrates better, with a heavier arrow…. Why wouldn’t I shoot the heavier arrow?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[c3products20]

Do any of you know of a study done to show how much penetration you lose from expandable broadheads?

[enewman]

Ok, I see some comprehension problems or writing problems. I'm going to take the blame and say it's my writing.

To the op. There is no middle ground. It is all about what you want. If you want to add weight and still shoot long distances. You need to build several different weight arrows, just by cheap arrows for this. Don't worry how well you are shooting them. Just shoot the longest distance you can. What you are looking for is what weight arrow will still get you to that long-distance you want to shoot. Personally, I would not be less than 450gr, but it does come down to KE. This is a fast answer, a lot more to it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, contact me. But you better bring extra batteries as it will get very dark because we will be extremely deep.

[enewman]

Back to what several of us have been talking about.

First, shooting the same bow as you increase arrow weight, the capacity of a bow to be able to apply more kinetic energy increases. Depending on the bow and how much weight will depend on how much increase there will be. I will post some examples later.

We should all know about inertia. Inertia is resistance to change in velocity. Now we cannot calculate inertia, but it is mass related. The more mass, the more inertia. But let's not forget about velocity. Back on that in a min.

If we are shooting the same bow and we compare a 400gr and a 600gr. The 600gr will have around a 2% to a 3% KE gain at the bow. (depends on the bow). But where it matters is at target. I have numbers on this at 20 yards. I will post this also.

Because of inertia, the heavy arrow will always lose less velocity dow line. That is physics.

[enewman]

Now to the confusion.

Let's look at physics only. Physics states that two objects of equal momentum but unequal mass. The object with the highest KE will be harder to stop.

The heavy arrow people say (Ashby followers) That momentum built on mass will outperform momentum built on velocity. If this was a true statement, then physics is wrong.

Now, this brings me to the test I asked the question to.

arrow 1 at 400gr and .520 momentum vs arrow 2 at 600gr .520 momentum. If you test this in a constant medium, you will see that the 400gr will out penetrate the 600gr. (not talking hunting) Physics already tells us this.

Now I said earlier; the heavy arrow will always out penetrate. So why am I saying now it won't.

This is where kinetic energy comes into play. ( now, someone above stated this cant happen from the same bow, this is 100% correct, but we are looking at physics. We do not care how we get to these velocities.)

The 400gr at .520 momentum will have a velocity of 292fps and a KE of 75.
the 600gr at .520 momentum will have a velocity of 195fps and a KE of 50. That is a difference of 50%.

To shoot those two arrows into a medium with equal retarding force, the 400gr will out penetrate the 600gr. That is physics. Back to inertia, With that much difference in KE, the 600gr arrow will not have enough inertia to overcome the 400gr with a 50% difference in KE.

Why did I want to point this out? Because in the archery world, they are teaching that momentum is what causes penetration. It's not. If momentum was, what gives us the capacity to penetrate, then with matching momentum at target, the 600gr should out penetrate.

[enewman]

Now it was asked to see Dave holt's test at a longer distance. Why? The outcome will be the same at any distance. Remember, he is matching KE at target. The target can be at 16 yards or 50 yards. The match is at target. At target is where we should be looking at what happens, not at the bow.

The test Dave did was to match KE at target. (physics states that two unequal mass objects but equal Kinetic energy. If the retarding force is equal, then the penetration will be equal.) The test shows that.

Let's look at the 400gr at 75KE. Its momentum is .52. The 600gr at 75KE, its momentum will be .63. Why is this test important to understand.

Remember I said the heavy arrow people say momentum built on mass will outperform momentum built on velocity.

That is not what physics states, nor what happens when testing in a medium with equal trading force.

Why is this important. It shows that KE is what gives us the capacity for penetration, not momentum.

So, I have shown you that KE is the capacity for penetration not momentum. I have shown it based on physics.