Extreme f.o.c or heavy arrow

[Beargrasstx]

We are talking about physics. Holy hell do people not understand. It dosent matter what we shoot it from one bow adjusted. Two bows or even a air gun that we can adjust the pressure. When doing this type of test, we are looking at mass, ke, and momentum. Doesn't matter how we get the velocity needed to match ke or momentum at impact.

But since you have an issue with it. Let’s ask the question another way

Shooter one is shooting a 400gr at .520 momentum into an equal retarding force medium.
Shooter two with a different bow is shooting a 600gr arrow with .520momentum into an equal retarding force medium. Who will have the greater amount of penetration. Shooter 1 or shooter 2?

I think you should email your example and question to the rocket scientist in the video.
Darrel Barnette - email is support@digtodef.com

As far as penetration (a little knowledge on a subject like physics can be dangerous) sometimes the solution is simple. Hang a pig up or a target and shoot those arrows out of the same bow, same draw, same draw weight and see which one penetrates more than the other at 20yds, 30yds, 40yds, etc

[cbd10pt]

[QUOTE=IkemanTX;15686796]I

Ok let's think about the whole picture.
What % of the vitals lie behind the leg bone/ about 4 sq inches. This is the only hit a heavy arrow might save you.
Any normal set up will punch ribs or scapula.

Now how much less can a deer duck when you have an extra 100 fps. -about 1/3 less- how much more accurate is a mechanical in a hunting ssituation- how much less critical is yardage judging.

All this slow arrow blah blah is robbing you of many advantages because you are scared of 4 sq inches

[enewman]

I think you should email your example and question to the rocket scientist in the video.
Darrel Barnette - email is support@digtodef.com

As far as penetration (a little knowledge on a subject like physics can be dangerous) sometimes the solution is simple. Hang a pig up or a target and shoot those arrows out of the same bow, same draw, same draw weight and see which one penetrates more than the other at 20yds, 30yds, 40yds, etc

I already know Darrel. Met him before he was with the ashby foundation. Already know what will happen with same bow.

I’ve been doing it a long time.

We all or should if you are a bow hunter should know, that as you add mass more potential energy is transferred to kinetic energy and that kinetic energy is transferred to the arrow.

We already know that as you add mass we increase inertia. We already know that the heavier with the increase inertia will not loose velocity as fast as a lighter arrow in flight. What they are showing in the video is archery 101. Hahaha. IT IS NOTHING NEW. Most of us have been doing it for years.

But not on this site as I only come over and look around just a little anymore, but I have been talking about kinetic energy for several years now.

I have seen test done by people that have been in the business for years and years. One is Dave holt. The second one is joel maxfield. But I don’t like the test being done in block targets. Even though Dr Ashby tells you in 2008 update part 7 to test in a foam target to prove FOC is doing something due to flex.

I have started looking at a test. But my problem is a cannot stop the arrow on the test medium (sand) I’m now looking at compressing the sand.

I do not want to do a outcome driven test as ashby did. Doing this type of test requires a extremely large sample rate. That means I need a consistent Target so my sample rate can be smaller.

What I’m doing is showing what causes penetration. Ke or momentum. This is a battle that has been going on for years. I have already wrote what is going to happen in the test. I showed it by looking at physics. The battle is to get people to understand.

Now the good part of the videos Troy is making is in the second one shooting long distance they are now talking about KE not momentum.

If you watched the first video where they are talking about the rod used to penetrate armor. What did they say how they did it when increasing the mass was out of the question. They increased its kinetic energy. Why, because KE is what gives the rod is ability to penetrate. Now what did Troy start talking about next. That animals are like armor. Hahaha. What is an arrow a rod.

They now have a man in the group that was a kinetic energy weapon person. This means he is now teaching them about ke. Hahahaha

By the way, yes they talked about momentum in the first video but very little in comparison.

[enewman]

[quote=cbd10pt;15687212]

I

Ok let's think about the whole picture.
What % of the vitals lie behind the leg bone/ about 4 sq inches. This is the only hit a heavy arrow might save you.
Any normal set up will punch ribs or scapula.

Now how much less can a deer duck when you have an extra 100 fps. -about 1/3 less- how much more accurate is a mechanical in a hunting ssituation- how much less critical is yardage judging.

All this slow arrow blah blah is robbing you of many advantages because you are scared of 4 sq inches

Funny how that is working out. The ranch fairy has done a great job convincing people.

[IkemanTX]

[quote=enewman;15687231]

Funny how that is working out. The ranch fairy has done a great job convincing people.

Then hunt your light arrows, and I will continue punching my heavy ones straight out the back of my targets… and deer.


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[ctom87]

Speed only kills on the highway

Even then the foc on a truck is pretty high

[enewman]

[quote=IkemanTX;15687650]

Then hunt your light arrows, and I will continue punching my heavy ones straight out the back of my targets… and deer.


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This debate will never go away. I like arrows in the 475 to 525gr. I like cut on contact broadheads. 175 to 200gr.

I have killed with 400gr arrows but had a bad shot. Years ago. That is why I shoot what I do now.

But I do not see a reason that we need a 650gr fora white tail deer. The foundation recommends this.

[Beargrasstx]

[quote=enewman;15687663]

This debate will never go away. I like arrows in the 475 to 525gr. I like cut on contact broadheads. 175 to 200gr.

I have killed with 400gr arrows but had a bad shot. Years ago. That is why I shoot what I do now.

But I do not see a reason that we need a 650gr fora white tail deer. The foundation recommends this.

I kind of agree with you on the 475 to 525 gr range cut on contact head. At least from looking at the little data that I have that seems to be the sweet spot. However, I don't think I will go down from 560gr anytime soon. Too much money invested and I like the results... at least so far.

However, you would be better off emailing the guy since you have known him awhile with your question and then post his reply with your question on here for all to see. Otherwise, what is the point of everyone going round and round over this topic. Whether Ke or momentum the real answer is a heavier arrow will penetrate more shot out of the same bow than a typical arrow that is 380 to 420gr. Basically it comes down to a preference

I like my 560gr set up because my bow is tuned, I know that I am going to punch a hole through anything and my 5 pin bow is set up out to 40 yds with first pin at 20, 2nd at 25, 3rd at 30, 4th at 35, etc. I don't plan on shooting at any whitetail or pigs further than that. Ideally I set up 30 yds or less

[enewman]

[quote=Beargrasstx;15687875]

I kind of agree with you on the 475 to 525 gr range cut on contact head. At least from looking at the little data that I have that seems to be the sweet spot. However, I don't think I will go down from 560gr anytime soon. Too much money invested and I like the results... at least so far.

However, you would be better off emailing the guy since you have known him awhile with your question and then post his reply with your question on here for all to see. Otherwise, what is the point of everyone going round and round over this topic. Whether Ke or momentum the real answer is a heavier arrow will penetrate more shot out of the same bow than a typical arrow that is 380 to 420gr. Basically it comes down to a preference

I like my 560gr set up because my bow is tuned, I know that I am going to punch a hole through anything and my 5 pin bow is set up out to 40 yds with first pin at 20, 2nd at 25, 3rd at 30, 4th at 35, etc. I don't plan on shooting at any whitetail or pigs further than that. Ideally I set up 30 yds or less

I thank you for your response. But for testing In a Constant media I already know the answer.

I will get out the computer tonight and find Dave holts test. He gave me permission to take his data and put it on paper under PNL TESTERS.

His test was matching ke at target.

[enewman]

beargrasstx

Background information. The link is about a guy named Norb Mullaney.

He did a lot of testing. Lots of it was on bow efficiency. Hard to find his data. I have some of it. He did a test showing that he is what gives us the capacity to do work. I cannot access it without paying.

Norb was good friends with Dave Holt.

https://bowhunting.net/2016/10/norm-mullaney-a-true-archery-technician-passes/

[enewman]

Next is the test done by Dave Holt. Dave Holt is a well-known hunter in Africa with over 2500 kills.

[enewman]

Little more info. Dave Holt is good friends with a man named Wayne. I do not know his last name. This is his background from an email I got to see.

"When I was technical director of the terminal ballistics test evaluation of the FFV AT4 bazooka at the test range near Eskilstuna, Sweden in the the1980s, I had ample opportunity to interface with many Swedish technical personnel, just as I did later in making presentations to the National Swedish Safety Board near/in Stockholm. Of course, stateside, I was known as the original ballistics engineer/chief troubleshooter for Honeywell/Alliant Techsystems, the largest manufacturer of conventional ammunition in the world."

This guy is the person that told Dave test media doesn't matter as long as it's consistent. He states that KE is what gives us the capacity to penetrate. I think he has the credentials to be able to say this.

As far as targets go. Lots of people that believe in Ashby states that Ashby says we cant test in targets. But what he states is targets don't compare to animals. But for testing, he states to use a foam target. That can be found in the 2008 part 7 update.

I have some more data from Dave Holt and Joel Maxfield. By the way, Joel Maxfield was the first employee for Mathews and is still there. He himself has killed a tremendous amount of animals, including an elephant. I think I would listen to Dave and Joel on what is needed to kill before listening to the ranch fairy.

[cbd10pt]

[quote=IkemanTX;15687650]

Then hunt your light arrows, and I will continue punching my heavy ones straight out the back of my targets… and deer.


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There are lots of folks following fairies, lil Nas X, and other great role models.

[enewman]

[quote=cbd10pt;15687950]

There are lots of folks following fairies, lil Nas X, and other great role models.

I have another one. Most trackers ask if you have two holes. Easier to track, but if two holes were the best, why do you need a dog?

Best is always the largest cut where the broadhead makes it to the offside at a minimum.

[Beargrasstx]

Little more info. Dave Holt is good friends with a man named Wayne. I do not know his last name. This is his background from an email I got to see.

"When I was technical director of the terminal ballistics test evaluation of the FFV AT4 bazooka at the test range near Eskilstuna, Sweden in the the1980s, I had ample opportunity to interface with many Swedish technical personnel, just as I did later in making presentations to the National Swedish Safety Board near/in Stockholm. Of course, stateside, I was known as the original ballistics engineer/chief troubleshooter for Honeywell/Alliant Techsystems, the largest manufacturer of conventional ammunition in the world."

This guy is the person that told Dave test media doesn't matter as long as it's consistent. He states that KE is what gives us the capacity to penetrate. I think he has the credentials to be able to say this.

As far as targets go. Lots of people that believe in Ashby states that Ashby says we cant test in targets. But what he states is targets don't compare to animals. But for testing, he states to use a foam target. That can be found in the 2008 part 7 update.

I have some more data from Dave Holt and Joel Maxfield. By the way, Joel Maxfield was the first employee for Mathews and is still there. He himself has killed a tremendous amount of animals, including an elephant. I think I would listen to Dave and Joel on what is needed to kill before listening to the ranch fairy.

Just so I get all this straight, you believe that a 400gr arrow is superior to a 700gr arrow and you can kill elephants with it? I hear you talk about kinetic energy and momentum. Honestly, I don't care which one is responsible for penetration. I know that going from a 380 gr arrow to a 560gr arrow the penetration difference is night and day. Are you saying arrow weight doesn't matter? Just trying to see where we differ and what we have in common. I believe we both feel like a 470gr to 520gr might be the sweet spot for penetration and good projectory. Maybe we have common ground there?

I plan to click on your links and give a look.

edited- I looked at the test. I hope there are more test because that one was lacking. KE and momentum of the heavier arrow was greater yet penetrated less. So KE and momentum were both better in the Arrow 2, yet Arrow 1 penetrated more....I would have liked to see more distances as well. Why 16 yards? Why not test at various distance to see effects?

Which I know for a fact that penetration from a 380 gr arrow versus a 560gr is significant by several inches in a foam target. Of course, all my shots were 20 yds or more and not 16 yards. Plus fps was different 280 fps for light arrow, 233,235fps for heavy arrow. In addition, I used a smaller diameter arrow and not aluminum shafts

What test have you done? Are you saying your lighter arrows have penetrated more into foam targets than heavy?

In response to the ranch fairy test just released. They showed the heavier arrow losing less fps over distance than the light arrow so it retained more speed relative to start and the heavy arrow lost less KE at 60yds versus a 400 gr arrow so the KE would not be the same with the heavier arrow retaining more energy during flight. Now what I thought was interesting was the 470gr arrow performance but that is another discussion.