Why Can't we have a UBI?

[glen]

Hold up Charlie- I have not worked in almost a year but eaten plenty

[Throwin Darts]

^^^^^^ m

No incentive to produce.

What many fail to realize is basic valuation concept. Even in a zero dollar society, certain things have value and certain things do not. For example, here in the US we have tons of water. So much so that we pull it out of the ground, pour so much on our yards that it runs into the streets. We value it very little because it is in abundance.

In the Middle East, they fight wars over water. Get that - they kill whole families just to have enough to drink.

The more abundant things are they less value they have.

If everyone has the same number of dollars to start with, that will not change how we value things but it will make things cost more in terms of dollars because we will have so many more dollars but the same number of resources. Dollars will be valued less.

That is the concept of valuation and why inflation happens.

Close thread. Here is your answer right here. Spot on.

[4wheels]

^^^^^^ m

No incentive to produce.

What many fail to realize is basic valuation concept. Even in a zero dollar society, certain things have value and certain things do not. For example, here in the US we have tons of water. So much so that we pull it out of the ground, pour so much on our yards that it runs into the streets. We value it very little because it is in abundance.

In the Middle East, they fight wars over water. Get that - they kill whole families just to have enough to drink.

The more abundant things are they less value they have.

If everyone has the same number of dollars to start with, that will not change how we value things but it will make things cost more in terms of dollars because we will have so many more dollars but the same number of resources. Dollars will be valued less.

That is the concept of valuation and why inflation happens.

x2

Here's your answer

[4wheels]

UBI works if you cut all other government handouts. Which won't happen.

Read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged

[OldRiverRat]

I honestly don’t understand the need nor discussion for ubi in the first place , why is even an option?
I understand that we already have some form of ubi but we shouldn’t
You work, you get paid and you survive
If you don’t then you have some major issues to deal with


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[hpdrifter]

It's really a critical thinking exercise. Just because we aren't calling the **** a ****, doesn't make it smell any less. So why not develop a plan that is more straight forward and honest?

Because if we really want to take this all the way to the end. Imagine we give everyone over 18 $1500 a month. Arguably, common minimum wage shops (fast food, box stores, restaurants) could reduce what they have to pay their employees. There is no more argument for "living wage". No more demonizing owners that they don't pay what liberals consider "enough".

Nothing like a good nanny state!

The government will take care of me. Let all them working people pay my bills, I'm no sucker.

I've got all this free time, I think I'll go find me a TV.

$1500 isn't enough, we need to give them more. COLA

[WItoTX]

^^^^^^ m

No incentive to produce.

What many fail to realize is basic valuation concept. Even in a zero dollar society, certain things have value and certain things do not. For example, here in the US we have tons of water. So much so that we pull it out of the ground, pour so much on our yards that it runs into the streets. We value it very little because it is in abundance.

In the Middle East, they fight wars over water. Get that - they kill whole families just to have enough to drink.

The more abundant things are they less value they have.

If everyone has the same number of dollars to start with, that will not change how we value things but it will make things cost more in terms of dollars because we will have so many more dollars but the same number of resources. Dollars will be valued less.

That is the concept of valuation and why inflation happens.

I missed your post somehow, but this is sort of why I was asking the question. I understand from the biblical perspective why work is important, and I understand from a self worth why work is important. But from a strictly conceptual discussion, could UBI ever work? And I think you nailed the missing piece.

What I question is why are things valuable, like gold? How have we decided gold is so important?

Anyways, lots of good posts on this thread, appreciate the thoughtful responses everyone!

[Landrover]

I missed your post somehow, but this is sort of why I was asking the question. I understand from the biblical perspective why work is important, and I understand from a self worth why work is important. But from a strictly conceptual discussion, could UBI ever work? And I think you nailed the missing piece.



What I question is why are things valuable, like gold? How have we decided gold is so important?



Anyways, lots of good posts on this thread, appreciate the thoughtful responses everyone!

Good point you make. I often attempt to look at so called standards/practices/norms or the ole "we always did it this way" model from multiple sides. Yes gold standard could have been sea shells [emoji224], iron ore or now crypto currency. It is based on what is deemed valuable.
The poor will always be with us......per the good book......thus social nets. The sick and elderly will always be with us......thus social security. Both social baskets [emoji3473] need to be tweaked. Is UBI the clear cut answer? More programs? No programs? A more reasonable combination that is based on our huge debt? [emoji848]
I am sure the next 30 years will see alot of movement in social programs across the board. We all know some manipulate the system.. But we also know that we have the ability to eliminate those....but we don't have the willpower. I regrettably pay an abhorrent amount of taxes but that is OUR system. I'm in the game so I play by the limitations set by the rules. I prefer to be on this side of the field than the other however. I have seen real poverty and have zero interest in being part of that coalition.

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[BowhunterB]

I missed your post somehow, but this is sort of why I was asking the question. I understand from the biblical perspective why work is important, and I understand from a self worth why work is important. But from a strictly conceptual discussion, could UBI ever work? And I think you nailed the missing piece.

What I question is why are things valuable, like gold? How have we decided gold is so important?

Anyways, lots of good posts on this thread, appreciate the thoughtful responses everyone!

Things have value because people want or need them. We need food, water, shelter. Things used to create shelter have value, etc. The more we move up the hierarchy of needs, we don't have to worry as much about the things we need and we want more things. But we have gotten so comfortable that people think things like a place to live, cars, cell phones and internet service are basic rights Money was a way to eliminate the barter system and have a way to value all things on the same scale and it is just the means to the ends, getting the things we want.

[Playa]

So we are a communist country? Because we already hand money out like it's our job. It's just not called UBI.

Technically we are a capitalist economy with socialistic tendencies. Communism by definition is that the state centrally owns and controls all means of GDP. Socialism may have sectors that are owned/controlled by the state. We, and similarly Canada and much of Europe prefer to allow private business to fuel economic growth, but weighted down my excessive taxes on both Corp and personal wealth to fund social programs.

I get your point I guess about we already have it, it’s just not called that. To some extent, our current system requires some level of effort upon the recipient to request and obtain the various forms of assistance. Although it probably costs more to administer due to redundancy in the bureaucracies. A UBI would lower barriers of entry, making assistance “universal” as the name implies.

[rolylane6]

Okay. So take the liberals out of the factor, take politicians out of the equation. Does UBI seem like it would be a better idea than our current system?

When you remove those 2 things our current system would be working fine and there would be no need for a new one.



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[Dusty Britches]

....

What I question is why are things valuable, like gold? How have we decided gold is so important?

...

You still missed it. Value is based on rarity. The more rare something is, the more valued it is. The more abundant something is, the less valued it is. Value is not a monetary assessment.

It doesn't matter if we need it to live unless we don't have any to live with. UBI will devalue dollars because it will become more abundant.

[Txfire409]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhGJ0gVW13o"]Rainbow Stew - YouTube[/ame]