Let's talk about arrows...

[TomB]

I am not trying to say that we all need to toss our heavier arrows and move to the lighter faster arrows. Mine are pretty middle of the road and I like them. So long as they fly well with my bow I intend to continue to use them.

So many people get caught up on penetration and want the really heavy arrows, and then others get bashed when they want to speed things up. I am simply saying that speeding things up is not necessarily a bad thing, and it's not nearly as bad as a lot of people make them out to be.

On the quietness of a bow, I'd rather have a faster quiet bow than a slower quiet bow. Both can easily be achieved today. But, go back and read some of Tuthdoc's threads about bow noise. He said it was overrated. Deer didn't seem to care in his opinion. I tend to believe that guy more than myself on matters such as these.

Now Tom, here's something for you to think about: Is the notion that mass and velocity are not independant variables based on outdated information? Does it include a string suppressor, and the super stiff but light arrows of today?

I think some of these questions are very valid. 5 grains per pound - where did that come from? Who decided that?

Kevin, I guess I am confused by the question on mass and velocity and the string suppressor. I guess it is possible that a little more energy from the bow could be transferred to the arrow with a string suppressor but intuitively it seems that LESS energy would be transferred since the string does not travel below brace height now. In other words the actual power stroke is less. But, I think the difference is likely to be in the margin and that overall the suppressor is better than not. (I like them again for quietness since I think the suppressor absorbs some of the energy that didn't go into propelling the arrow and thus becomes noise. I don't think the presence of a suppressor inherently makes the bow more efficient.)

5 grains per pound is likely outdated and was a safety measure (probably with some sound engineering based on strength of materials) to keep the bow from tearing itself apart if too light an arrow was shot. Now that some bow manufacturers claim how many dry fires they test their bows with, it seems to me that the bows are much more robust and can likely handle the lighter weight arrows without damage. But, having said that I doubt their legal departments would let them relax that standard. I think we might agree that a properly spined arrow independent of arrow weight is a the best determinant for a proper arrow match. Weight then becomes personal preference.

I still subscribe to the quiet bow theory since I can't shoot the speed of sound. I also prefer to keep my arrow speed around 280 fps if I can.

[doubleplay43]

Kevin,

If you have a bare shaft and field point with no nock, insert, or fletchings your arrow is 297 grains...

I just ordered mine (HV V1 300 spine) at 28 3/4 and total weight with a 100 grain head is 350 grains. Which is well within the 5 grains per pound if I am shooting 65 pounds.

[Texastaxi]

FTR, I've known two people that shot the Victory arrows and the same two people said they're junk. No durability whatsoever.

Besides that, you may void your warranty by shooting lighter than 5 grains per pound and the bow will prolly sound like a 22 rifle!

[LostHawg]

How light does the arrow have to be before it becomes relative to a dry fire?

5.5 is freaky scary!!!

[TX_Kevin]

Kevin, I guess I am confused by the question on mass and velocity and the string suppressor. I guess it is possible that a little more energy from the bow could be transferred to the arrow with a string suppressor but intuitively it seems that LESS energy would be transferred since the string does not travel below brace height now. In other words the actual power stroke is less. But, I think the difference is likely to be in the margin and that overall the suppressor is better than not. (I like them again for quietness since I think the suppressor absorbs some of the energy that didn't go into propelling the arrow and thus becomes noise. I don't think the presence of a suppressor inherently makes the bow more efficient.)

5 grains per pound is likely outdated and was a safety measure (probably with some sound engineering based on strength of materials) to keep the bow from tearing itself apart if too light an arrow was shot. Now that some bow manufacturers claim how many dry fires they test their bows with, it seems to me that the bows are much more robust and can likely handle the lighter weight arrows without damage. But, having said that I doubt their legal departments would let them relax that standard. I think we might agree that a properly spined arrow independent of arrow weight is a the best determinant for a proper arrow match. Weight then becomes personal preference.

I still subscribe to the quiet bow theory since I can't shoot the speed of sound. I also prefer to keep my arrow speed around 280 fps if I can.

Ok, let me see if I can be more clear. As you stated, a string suppressor absorbs left over energy that is converted to noise, or vibration. So if it absorbs the energy that didn't go into the arrow, then perhaps it's lessening the effects of the lighter shaft on the bow itself. I agree with another of your points that the suppressor doesn't inherently make the bow more efficient, but I do think it bleeds off the wasted energy quite well, thus not transmitting that energy back to the limbs. I am merely stating that I don't think the supressors were involved in that 5 grains/pound recommendation.

I will not venture into whether the cams, limbs, risers, etc. can handle it with the new technologies because I have no possible way of knowing that.

I guess for me, it all boils down to preference. Deer are not real thick, and ribs don't stop much. A fast, fast, fast arrow can still blow through a deer really quick even if it is light. That's my point.

So DoublePlay with his Victory V-Force HV's can smoke a deer with a fast arrow, and bury the dang thing in a tree 10 yards past. And, he can do that with a full metal jacket from the same bow. At that point, it boils down to which he prefers - fast, or heavy. I don't think he's wrong for wanting the speed. Speed is cool too.

I just think too many people are hung up on weight without thinking it totally through.

I don't hear a lot of people saying that they lightened their arrows, increased their speed, flattened their trajectory, but now their arrows just bounce off, or only go in two inches.

I personally don't have that much to go on. What I can say is that when one of these fast arrows hits the target (a block) it knocks the crap out of it, even to the point of spinning it around. So it made me start thinking.

[TX_Kevin]

How light does the arrow have to be before it becomes relative to a dry fire?

5.5 is freaky scary!!!

Good question. And, how many other items are to be considered in that such as string supressors?

[TX_Kevin]

Kevin,

If you have a bare shaft and field point with no nock, insert, or fletchings your arrow is 297 grains...

I just ordered mine (HV V1 300 spine) at 28 3/4 and total weight with a 100 grain head is 350 grains. Which is well within the 5 grains per pound if I am shooting 65 pounds.

See, this too is good Ricky. Mine are cut 28 1/2" throat of the nock to the tip of the arrow, so yours are just a quarter inch longer than mine.

I can just watch you for a while, and if yours work for you and you have super good results, I can just borrow 3 or 4 of yours!

[TomB]

Kevin,
I don't think I disagree with anything you said. I did miss the apparently related thread so I am little in the dark there. I do know folks that go to Africa and are shooting very large game with thick hides and they want very heavy arrows. We helped one guy make some 1000 grain arrows for shooting cape buffalo and a giraffe.

I can see how a string suppressor might mitigate the damage if you did accidentally dry fire your bow. Some of the energy would be absorbed by the suppressor rather than tearing up the bow.

As far as shooting white tailed deer here in Texas I don't think it matters what you shoot if you can hit your mark.

[bowhuntntxn]

I am wondering why the continual mention of string suppressors. The probablility of you matching arrow spine to the draw weight of your bow should pretty much dictate a certain portion of the arrow weight. Now if you go below that, then IMO you will have a bow that is very hard to tune, because of the inconsistency of arrow flight. Add the variable of BH blades, or added length of the BH tip over a field point, and then spine becomes even more critical.

Lotsa folks have gone lighter and faster, and created problems for themselves, and some have gone slower and heavier and done the same thing. And if the string suppressor was the cure all for speed and the issues it can bring, then every bow made would have had it a long time ago. But all that being said, if you find a set up that works for you and you are comfortable with it, then knock them outta their hides!!

[TX_Kevin]

Kevin,
I don't think I disagree with anything you said. I did miss the apparently related thread so I am little in the dark there. I do know folks that go to Africa and are shooting very large game with thick hides and they want very heavy arrows. We helped one guy make some 1000 grain arrows for shooting cape buffalo and a giraffe.

I can see how a string suppressor might mitigate the damage if you did accidentally dry fire your bow. Some of the energy would be absorbed by the suppressor rather than tearing up the bow.

As far as shooting white tailed deer here in Texas I don't think it matters what you shoot if you can hit your mark.

Like I said, I've seen light arrows being shot fast and they really smacked the block. It made me start thinking about whether we all have been right all these years about needing the heavier weighted arrows.

I know the trad guys all want to shoot the heaviest thing they can find. I know there's something to all that, but then speed isn't an option for them. At least not lots of speed, like running an arrow up to 340 or 360 fps.

Like in DoublePlay's case, he's running this light (350 grain) arrow up to around 330 fps or so. I am having trouble thinking he's not going to have tremendous penetration and a very flat trajectory.

[Mike Javi Cooper]

Trying to change the laws of physics is an exercise in futility..


You can kill any animal in the world with a 22 short but how many really want to try...

[Traildust]

Search Trad Gang (dot) com.......Read Dr. Ed Ashby's penetration findings....kinda long winded, but some good info or look in this months Bowhunter magazine

[LostHawg]

Good question. And, how many other items are to be considered in that such as string supressors?

Right, I'm curious. I knew a bowyer who would not warranty a bow if the buyer used carbon arrows period.

I hadn't educated to that point at that time, so I'm indifferent to his reasoning. I can and could accept it based on the technology of that period.

Search Trad Gang (dot) com.......Read Dr. Ed Ashby's penetration findings....kinda long winded, but some good info or look in this months Bowhunter magazine

Just Google Dr. Ashby. He's a reliable source. Tradgang is not an unbiased source to seek information and is anti-compound. Making them unreliable.

[TX_Kevin]

Trying to change the laws of physics is an exercise in futility..


You can kill any animal in the world with a 22 short but how many really want to try...

That's not the same thing. A 22 short is a decrease in velocity. More like a 22-250. DoublePlay is greatly increasing the velocity. It's not changing the laws of physics, it's abiding by them. If you decrease the mass, you have to increase the velocity to maintain the same amount of energy.

[Bill]

Your bow's warranty card should say the minimum arrow weight that they will honor a warranty claim. It's typically (not always) 6 grains per pound or a 420 grain arrow at 70#. As you go below that, less of the energy of the bow can be absorbed into the arrow and sound/ the possibility of the bow failing in a 'semi-dryfire' increases.

Honestly guy, other than shooting unmarked 3d and needing to be within an inch or 2 of the 10 ring on an animal target at 40 or 50 yards, when do you hunt anything and shoot that far away, and not have a range finder to measure the distance ahead of time, to know the distance?

The 5 grain/pound was established by the IBO when guys were blowing up bows in 3d shoots and they wanted to set some lower-end limit for safety. Also note, that an NFAA-sanctioned 3d event, the top arrow velocity was only raised on June 1 of this year from 280 to 300 fps. Above that, and you'll be DQ'd if somebody challenges your bow's speed. Why you ask? Because archery is supposed to be a sport of skill and range estimation is past of 3d tournaments. "One pin hits all" is not what it's all about.

Off my soapbox.