Waterfowl Load Question

[MooseontheLoose]

By that logic you guys should try some tss tungsten loads. Dont cheap out and stop at bismuth when tungsten is so much better.

A 20 gauge with tss is better than a 12 gauge boss bismuth load. It has less recoil, longer range, much better penetration.

Ive shot and loaded it all. At the end of the day getting them to decoy on up then crushing them with the right choke/steel shot load is cost effective and works best for me.

I can probably even use the cost savings to take an extra hunting trip out of state every year.

Oh boy. All I've given is straight facts and numbers in this thread.

Tungsten (18.1g/cc) hits harder than bismuth (9.6g/cc) which hits harder than steel (7.8g/cc), payload and speed being equal. Since you've loaded and shot everything there is out there, I'm sure you already know that.

Bismuth is only a little more money than steel for a better product. Tungsten is significantly more than both for the best product. Do you need TSS to kill ducks? No. Is it a better product? Yes. Bismuth is a happy medium, being a higher quality shell than steel at a much better price than TSS. If it's not cost effective for you, then don't use it. Who cares if someone else does? I don't use TSS, but I can still say it's a better product.

That 20 gauge with TSS WOULD be better, especially from a penetration standpoint. The 20 with TSS has the knockdown power to kill a turkey at significant distances, so waterfowl isn't a problem. Your Federal steel shells aren't holding anything close to that same energy or knockdown power at distance.

Hunting the X every day and getting the birds to back pedal perfectly in the kill hole every hunt of the whole season just doesn't happen for me. Maybe it does for you. Sometimes they only work the edges. Sometimes they slide. Sometimes I just have to make do with an area on public land. Sometimes they don't come in at all. If they don't do it perfectly and I have to pass shoot, run traffic at a spot, or shoot geese at the edge of the decoys, I'm going to shoot a shell that has the best pattern and knockdown power at a number of distances. From my testing and field experience with guys that shoot all 3, the steel just doesn't hold up to the other two.

[bloodtrail18]

Oh boy. All I've given is straight facts and numbers in this thread.

Tungsten (18.1g/cc) hits harder than bismuth (9.6g/cc) which hits harder than steel (7.8g/cc), payload and speed being equal. Since you've loaded and shot everything there is out there, I'm sure you already know that.

Bismuth is only a little more money than steel for a better product. Tungsten is significantly more than both for the best product. Do you need TSS to kill ducks? No. Is it a better product? Yes. Bismuth is a happy medium, being a higher quality shell than steel at a much better price than TSS. If it's not cost effective for you, then don't use it. Who cares if someone else does? I don't use TSS, but I can still say it's a better product.

That 20 gauge with TSS WOULD be better, especially from a penetration standpoint. The 20 with TSS has the knockdown power to kill a turkey at significant distances, so waterfowl isn't a problem. Your Federal steel shells aren't holding anything close to that same energy or knockdown power at distance.

Hunting the X every day and getting the birds to back pedal perfectly in the kill hole every hunt of the whole season just doesn't happen for me. Maybe it does for you. Sometimes they only work the edges. Sometimes they slide. Sometimes I just have to make do with an area on public land. Sometimes they don't come in at all. If they don't do it perfectly and I have to pass shoot, run traffic at a spot, or shoot geese at the edge of the decoys, I'm going to shoot a shell that has the best pattern and knockdown power at a number of distances. From my testing and field experience with guys that shoot all 3, the steel just doesn't hold up to the other two.

I agree 100% with this. One thing I do to get better performance at distance with steel is to shoot a tighter choke. I switched to a patternmaster code black "goose" choke and I find I get fewer cripples with it vs say a mod choke shooting the same loads.

[tward1604]

I bought a ton of # Fasteal last year. It ended up being all I shot all season. It dumped birds as good or better than my #4 steel the year before. 28" barrel full choke. I think it just patterned really well out of my gun.

[Quackerbox]

There is no question that 2 3/4" #5 cold Pb82 out of a 42a powder bushing is the most devastating load that waterfowl will ever see

[SaintBlaise]

Interesting question. I think you can make a strong case for the lighter loads with the heavier metals.

I’ve never shot aces but have shot 3.5” #2s at geese and cranes for the exact reasons you mentioned. I don’t have any 3” or 3.5” #1s to compare, but I do have a 3” #2 shell. The bag I can’t find has the other 3.5” loads and some BBs in it as well.

The 3.5” #2 shell is a Black Cloud with 1.5 oz. of payload. There are 175 pellets in that shell. With some rough math I would bet there’s a pellet count in the high 150s/low 160s for a 3.5” #1.

I’ll compare the 2.75” bismuth to the 3.5” Black Cloud, since those are the shells I have. With the 3.5” shells, you’re shooting only .25 oz. more payload (in .75” more of shell) of a lighter metal while losing about 60 pellets in your pattern. The pellets are bigger, but there are almost 30% fewer of them in a bigger, harder kicking shell.

I’ve become more and more of a fan of hitting them with the heavier metal due to the energy retention. It’s basically the same thing as the light vs. heavy arrow in the bowhunting world. Speeds and payloads relatively equal, it makes more sense (to me), to hit them with more heavier pellets than fewer lighter ones. Other factors like hunting type/style/shot distance expectation should also play a factor in shell selection. Choke/shell combo and patterning is huge.

You absolutely don’t need a heavier metal shell to kill birds, but if it’s a more efficient bullet and you can afford it, my philosophy is, why not? Hitting them with more energy could be the difference between penetrating the down vs. bouncing off of it, or just hitting a wing bone vs. actually breaking it.

Another factor for me (albeit not a huge one) is the gun kick & recovery time between shots. My gun doesn’t react nearly as much to the 2.75” shell as it does to the candlesticks (especially the BBs), which helps shot recovery & target acquisition for shots 2 & 3.

There’s been a big movement in the turkey world the last few years going to the TSS tungsten loads. Guys are frequently reporting kills out to 60-80 yards with the heavier metal shells, shooting #7-9 shot. I personally haven’t shot those shells (nor would I shoot a turkey that far), but the energy retention at distance and shell performance is there, especially for such small pellets. I’ve killed 3 longbeards with the 2.75” bismuth load. If they can knock a 19 lb. turkey flat off his feet at 25 yards, they’ll definitely work on a 6 lb. goose under normal shooting distances.

I’ve killed specks, snows, and cacklers with the 2.75” shells. I haven’t noticed any negatives shooting them, or had times where I wish I had a bigger shell. You mentioned ducks while goose hunting, and I’ve had the opposite happen. We were duck hunting a small flooded cedar lake and an 8 pack of cacklers flew over well within range. Dropped 5 out of the 8 and the little shells didn’t miss a beat.

There are a lot of interesting loads on the market now in the heavier metals. I’m a fan of the Boss stuff and they have a 3” #2, a 3” 3/5 blend, and a 3” #5 among other loads now. I’ll probably pick up a box of the 3” 5s just to see what kind of pellet count is in that shell. There's a big movement with guys dropping down to 16, 20, & 28 gauges hunting ducks & geese with the heavier metal loads since the performance is there. As an aside, I'm not affiliated with Boss in any way, just relaying my experiences with them and other shells in general. They make a quality product but aren't a magic bullet. I just enjoy this stuff.

Thanks for all the details, I really appreciate it. No way I'm putting down my Browning 12 ga. lol I'll give the Boss a try next time I order.

Here's a real detailed question on lead. Where we hunt, there is a lot of pressure, and we don't always have the opportunity to shoot up close. Typically, prior to calling shot, I'll reference how many birds(distance) to lead. Do you know how to calculate how much to lead a bird. Getting this right, it makes it easy. I've made calculations years ago, but not sure if they are correct.

The variables for geese:
- flight speed
- distance
- shot speed
- wind

[Lone_Wolf]

You're thinking to much. In my opinion, wing shooting becomes more of an instinctive thing like shooting a recurve, when you start talking about really long, or fast flying targets. If start trying to calculate stuff I'd be more inclined to thing you'd be more likely to mess yourself up.

[eastxhunter]

Lol the bro science for waterfowling. Never fails

[MooseontheLoose]

Thanks for all the details, I really appreciate it. No way I'm putting down my Browning 12 ga. lol I'll give the Boss a try next time I order.

Here's a real detailed question on lead. Where we hunt, there is a lot of pressure, and we don't always have the opportunity to shoot up close. Typically, prior to calling shot, I'll reference how many birds(distance) to lead. Do you know how to calculate how much to lead a bird. Getting this right, it makes it easy. I've made calculations years ago, but not sure if they are correct.

The variables for geese:
- flight speed
- distance
- shot speed
- wind

I've played around with that a little bit but the number of variables are endless. Here's a pretty good thread from DHC with some good information: https://www.duckhuntingchat.com/foru...913b9c7da75238

Some of the images won't come up since it's a dated thread but there's some good info. in the posts.

I have the same approach as Lone_Wolf and shoot more by feel. It's interesting to look at what it would actually calculate out to be, but I think in the heat of the moment trying to work all that out would do more harm than good, by taking too long to figure it out, not following through, etc. Your approach sounds solid though. Most people will never miss a bird because they lead it too far, and everyone has a story about the flock they shot into, aiming at the lead bird but the third bird fell.

[friscopaint]

I bought a ton of # Fasteal last year. It ended up being all I shot all season. It dumped birds as good or better than my #4 steel the year before. 28" barrel full choke. I think it just patterned really well out of my gun.

Prior to Boss, Kent was my preferred steel. Good results and reasonable in 3.5's. In my fields I have mix of ducks, geese (some greaters) and sandhills so generally 3.5 BBs

[friscopaint]

I wish I could shoot instinctively, cross eye dominant and can't shoot lefty. One thing that happened this yr and no science but my buddies boss shot string must have been longer. Crossing right to left he shot 1st duck and dropped 2nd and 3rd.....these were fast flying buffleheads which we normally don't see in NW oklahoma. We were both dumbfounded.

[Lungbustr]

There is no question that 2 3/4" #5 cold Pb82 out of a 42a powder bushing is the most devastating load that waterfowl will ever see

Ive heard 1 3/8 oz #4 nickel plated lead at over 1350 fps aint bad either. That quality euro nickel plated tends to run a hair small.

[Shaky]

I shoot a lot of shells through my gun during duck season anything from teal to cranes i shoot 3 inch number 2's killem close or reach out and poke em i have made 100 yard shots on birds with them but thats just me

[Duckologist]

I shoot a lot of shells through my gun during duck season anything from teal to cranes i shoot 3 inch number 2's killem close or reach out and poke em i have made 100 yard shots on birds with them but thats just me

How was that hundred yards measured and then why? Why would anyone be shooting at sumin that far?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[hoytassassin]

I shot BOSS copper plated steel last year and absolutely hammered birds. I used the 2 3/4 #6's for most of the year and it crushed birds out to 45-50 yards. I switched from steel due to losing cripples or having to shoot a cripple 2-3 more times. All of last year I had 1 cripple with Boss ammo. Steel isn't nearly effective and dead ain't dead when you're losing birds. Unfortunately, if you really chase waterfowl, you know you're not always going to be on the x or have birds cooperate so pay the extra and buy a quality load(that's made by Americans) that gives you an edge.

[deerdynasty]

I guess it comes down to what you can afford. if you pay 1000s for a lease or taxes a yr for duck land and 1000s on gear and want to take home 25% or more ducks a yr shoot TSS. its kind of nuts how it folds them from 50 yards out. did I make a triple with 2 3/4 steel last hunt because I left my TSS at home by accident. yes. but have I made a triple at 50-60 yards with TSS yes. if you can afford it get it. if not then get what you can afford. depends how mad at em u r! lol.