This is the idiocy we have to deal with on the TP&W commision

[CrookedArrow]

I'd be willing to bet that if less large gar were caught/shot and left on the bank to rot, this wouldn't even be a conversation. And don't tell me it doesn't happen. I've seen it with my own two eyes. I think gar are the javelina of the water world in many people's eyes.

yep as well as carp

[donpablo]

I'm an avid outdoor sportsman, and as such I also believe in sustainable conservation practices. I see no problem with the proposed changes to the regulations.

But do you not see the danger of appointed officials ignoring sound science to make regulations based on the opinion of 1 or 2 people? Imagine if they decided that (despite scientific findings) allowing muzzleloaders for deer hunting could possibly one day become a threat to the resource so they're going to put a stop to it. That's a perfect parallel to what's happening here.

[crumrw]

But do you not see the danger of appointed officials ignoring sound science to make regulations based on the opinion of 1 or 2 people? Imagine if they decided that (despite scientific findings) allowing muzzleloaders for deer hunting could possibly one day become a threat to the resource so they're going to put a stop to it. That's a perfect parallel to what's happening here.

So you have the science to prove the contrary? You're making a lot of assumptions from one email without offering any proof that they're ignoring the science. Also, my opinion is that it's not a conservation mindset to wait until a species is threatened by human practices before you act. You act so that the population doesn't become threatened in the first place. To each their own...

[mudkat]

So you have the science to prove the contrary? You're making a lot of assumptions from one email without offering any proof that they're ignoring the science. Also, my opinion is that it's not a conservation mindset to wait until a species is threatened by human practices before you act. You act so that the population doesn't become threatened in the first place. To each their own...

The gar are not being threatened by the limited number of gar taken by the small number of bowfishermen ! they the TP&W have said that.
The alligator gar in other states that have disappeared is because of the way people(I.E) the government have changed the natural flows of the rivers by damming and flood control not because they were bowfished into extinction.

[donpablo]

The gar are not being threatened by the limited number of gar taken by the small number of bowfishermen ! they the TP&W have said that.
The alligator gar in other states that have disappeared is because of the way people(I.E) the government have changed the natural flows of the rivers by damming and flood control not because they were bowfished into extinction.

Yep. Not going off of the e-mail. If you've been following the history of this issue, you know all of the sound science that has been collected and then later trashed when it didn't fit the narrative they were hoping for.

Just curious crumrw, how do you feel about the libs blocking the import of polar bear trophies because global warming just might some day in the immeasurable future maybe cause them to be threatened?

[crumrw]

We should push for a law that says that TPWD needs to show scientific reasoning before making regulation changes. I think it's safe to say that taking concerns to the commission is pointless. We need to take our concerns to our elected officials.

I also think you're right about taking our concerns to the elected officials. They have something to lose by not taking the public's concerns seriously.

[crumrw]

Yep. Not going off of the e-mail. If you've been following the history of this issue, you know all of the sound science that has been collected and then later trashed when it didn't fit the narrative they were hoping for.

All it would take to change my opinion is examples.

Just curious crumrw, how do you feel about the libs blocking the import of polar bear trophies because global warming just might some day in the immeasurable future maybe cause them to be threatened?

I don't have an opinion on this. I don't know enough about this issue to fight for one side or the other.

[BuckSmasher]

All it would take to change my opinion is examples.



I don't have an opinion on this. I don't know enough about this issue to fight for one side or the other.

Someone on TBH just said they were not informed enough on a subject to form an opinion. I never thought I would see it!

Hats off to you CRUMRW. You own the internet today.

Here is a salute to forming opinions AFTER being informed instead of forming an opinion and NEVER being informed.

[Hot4huntin]

So you have the science to prove the contrary? You're making a lot of assumptions from one email without offering any proof that they're ignoring the science. Also, my opinion is that it's not a conservation mindset to wait until a species is threatened by human practices before you act. You act so that the population doesn't become threatened in the first place. To each their own...

Ferrara (2001) postulated that mid-size adult alligator gar had the greatest influence on population growth rate and should be protected; limited harvest of older fish (>25 years) did not cause population growth rates to decline substantially. David L. Buckmeir TPWD (2008) Life History and Status of Alligator Gar Atractosteus spatula, with Recommendations for Management TPWD David L. Buckmeir; A.M. Ferrara (2001) Life-history strategy of Lepisosteidae: implications for the conservation and management of alligator gar.

TPWD 07/21/09 Regulations Committee

Alligator Gar Statewide

Although the severity of these declines is unknown...

TPWD 11/03/10 TPWD Regulations Committee

Item 5, Update on Alligator Gar Research and Management Craig Bonds

We know we have the best trophy alligator gar fishing opportunities in the entire world and we want to maintain them for present and future generations.

What we’ve learned from our bowfishing tournaments, there have been three large, organized alligator gar focused bowfishing tournaments on the Trinity River each of the past two years. And, 468 participants have harvested approximately 100 alligator gar out of those six tournaments and it’s been fairly equally split between 2009 and 2010.

One important point to make is that they are harvesting a wide range of sizes of alligator gar, but their harvest rate is actually not that high. Their efficiency is fairly low. It takes approximately 50 angler hours for each alligator gar harvest from those tournaments.

A sustainable harvest rate of about 1 to 5 percent of the total population, on an annual basis, is what we believe is a sustainable rate.

But, from our angler returns of those tagged fish, we’ve estimated that the current harvest level is around 3 to 3 ½ percent, on an annual basis so we’re within that sustainable window...

Now, that 2010 estimate—1.5 percent—that is only for data we’ve collected through June. We will need to amend that value with recently collect information but based on the rate at which those tags were returned to us, we believe that the harvest is very similar to ’08 and ’09.

So, in summary, we believe the harvest on the Trinity River right now is at a sustainable rate...

We also need to better understand hooking mortality and as I’ve heard from some bow anglers that have shifted more towards rod and reel angling, that we need a better handle on those fish that are released and how they do over time and the implications for catch and release angling.

Also, we need to increase our knowledge of alligator gar outside the Trinity River. We’ve worked hard to try to learn as much as we can about that watershed but we need information about alligator gar fisheries outside that area.

BONDS: ...the Trinity River and it does appear that harvest is within sustainable window.

COMMISSIONER: ...shouldn’t we be looking at reducing or somehow managing the take during the spawn?

BONDS: Well, that’s certainly a concern and certainly a component of the angling constituency that if we were to regulate this fish in any greater detail, we would need to address for sure.

COMMISSIONER: But that’s no indication right now that we need to do that, based on the data that we currently have. Is that correct?

BONDS: That is correct.

COMMISSIONER: So there’s no negative impact on the health of the population.

COMMISSIONER: Well, you say—if I understood him, he was saying that the take is presently right on the edge of where it could be—it would be problematic. Is that right or not right?

BONDS: That is true. It’s within our estimates of what is sustainable but it is on the edge.

COMMISSIONER: But it’s currently sustainable and it’s also similar to the previous two years.

BONDS: That is correct.

03/30/11 TPWD Commission Regulations Committee

COMMISSIONER: So you’re comfortable with that the regulations should stay the same, at this point?

KURZAWSKI: Yes.

[justletmein]

So according to that it was on the edge of sustainability on 2010. Where is the data we are using in 2019? Perhaps it's tipped over that edge, no?

[GarGuy]

So according to that it was on the edge of sustainability on 2010. Where is the data we are using in 2019? Perhaps it's tipped over that edge, no?

NO,

The thousands of 07 and 09 super spawn fish that were just below 4ft in 2010 were not counted in the population estimate.. Now they are well over 6ft and the 2013 and 2015 super spawns are over 4 ft as well. the population is absolutely bulging on the Trinity right now.

[crumrw]

That was 9 years ago... and 9 years ago the regulation stayed the same. Even at that time it was considered "right on the edge of where it would problematic". Granted this data is only representative of 6 tournaments over two years, so not exactly a full study of the impact on the fishery as a whole.

This is also not a black and white issue. The new regulations are not ending The ability to bowhunt alligator gar, just limiting the take of alligator gar. The first sentence that you bolded says "limited harvest...did not cause population growth rates to decline substantially." I believe you've probably done more research than me on the topic, but to me it appears the regulations are following pretty closely to what the data suggests.

[crumrw]

NO,

The thousands of 07 and 09 super spawn fish that were just below 4ft in 2010 were not counted in the population estimate.. Now they are well over 6ft and the 2013 and 2015 super spawns are over 4 ft as well. the population is absolutely bulging on the Trinity right now.

There have been a couple super spawns in the last decade, but also a few dry years too. Really we just need to see the current data, which I'm sure exists.

[simek]

The following is from a 2016 paper penned by the same person identified in Dena's post above. It's focused on the Trinity, which, according to science, is likely the best stretch of river in the US at holding trophy size fish. The paper was based on 850 fish captured from 2007 to 2014 in the Middle Trinity.

The current TPWD management goal for the Trinity River alligator gar population is to provide a unique trophy fishing opportunity and maintain the existing size structure and density. Based on our estimates of size structure, exploitation, and population vital rates, we are currently meeting this goal. However, because alligator gar are a long-lived species with variable recruitment, populations can be vulnerable to overfishing (e.g., Parent and Schrimi 1995, Boreman 1997, Jennings et al. 1998). Truncated size and age structure of commercially-fished alligator gar populations in Louisiana (Ferrara 2001, DiBenedetto 2009) provides further evidence of susceptibility. This necessitates a cautious approach to management, because recovery will be slow if overexploitation occurs (e.g., populations in the Sabine National Wildlife Refuge, Louisiana, and Choke Canyon Reservoir, Texas). We believe that current harvest levels in the middle Trinity River are sustainable. However, because regulations (i.e., 1 fish d –1 bag limit) do not limit entry, higher fishing effort could increase harvest above the targeted 5% maximum. Hence, more restrictive regulations (e.g., harvest quotas or a tag system) may be required in the future to maintain this unique alligator gar population.

- Trophy Alligator Gar in the Trinity River Buckmeier et al. 2016

So, with respect to the Middle Trinity, current management strategies are working well. However, in the event of increased pressure in the future (2019 is the future), 2016 strategies may need an update to maintain the sustainability.

[simek]

NO,

The thousands of 07 and 09 super spawn fish that were just below 4ft in 2010 were not counted in the population estimate.. Now they are well over 6ft and the 2013 and 2015 super spawns are over 4 ft as well. the population is absolutely bulging on the Trinity right now.

You sure about your growth rate estimates? This is from a paper titled Life History and Status of Alligator Gar Atractosteus spatula, with Recommendations for Management, by David L. Buckmeier, TPWD.

Growth of older fish is much slower, taking about 10 years to attain a total length of 1 m and 30 or more years to reach a length of 2m.

Buckmeier is suggesting it takes 20 years to go from 3' to 6'. Your saying it takes they can go from just under 4' to well over 6' in 9 years? Maybe I am misunderstanding your statement?