RIP Stephen Hawking

[Encinal]

I never saw that either but I could imagine some of this has been deleted as some of this has really gone waaaaay off track.

The quote you had posted about technology was quite interesting. Made me think that our 3 pound brains are the biggest trouble ever conceived/developed/invented.

Don’t give everyone credit for 3lbs.

[Landrover]

Talk about a thread that's run its course!

I would agree, as I thought that was the case back on page 4 or 5. Shameful how this been dragged thru the yard.

[Death from Above]

When you say you are called to do it, it is our purpose on earth, who all does that include?
I mentioned wild people earlier. No one has ever encountered one who was already saved and actively spreading the gospel. Why not? Another poster said no such people exist, but in my eyes they do. I listen to the missionaries as a kid talk about these heathens, how desperately we need to take the Gospel to them, etc....Why? Does god not speak to them, same as me and you? Had I been a little older I would have asked the missionaries in my church this same thing. All the ones they don't reach, what about them? They talk about how they are headed to a devils hell, and desperately need to hear gods word. If god gives them all a chance, why so much concern. Is there chance not as good as yours or mine? Do they not get the same fair shake?
Someone said these questions are loaded, I don't mean it that way. If you see it that way, don't reply. So far we've managed to not bring the hammer down, so I would like to keep it that way.

These are awesome questions and one that I wish every believer would ask...the Bible says we are to know why we believe what we do and to be able to give a defense. To much ignorant blind faith in my opinion...people do not even know what they claim to trust in. Now that is not a knock on them but rather a knock on the church and its lack of intentional discipleship.

I will try and touch each on MadHatter and you feel free to ask anything, I will do my best with what I can...

Every believer is called to live out there faith in a way that has them being a missionary. For most that is in their homes, workplaces and community. that is the example we see. Every true believer should be under conviction to share the Gospel. Not necessarily in a Bible thumping street preaching manner, but intentional non the less.

The Bible says where there is no Law sin is not imputed, since the punishment of sin (death) has been since the Garden there must have been a way God was making Himself known. We see that in Romans 1:20. God is not some vengeful monster playing with His Creation. His love and compassion are all throughout the Bible, but make no mistake, He is holy and requires us to be also. We do that through faith in Jesus.

On doing missions and the concern for the lost, that is a 2 sided coin. One should be the conviction of the believer to want to share with everyone what they have found in Jesus, if a person does not think enough of Jesus to in their lives to be obedient to His command and share the opportunity for Grace, then I wonder what they really think of Him, their sin and the promise of the Gift. Second side of the coin is obedience to the Great Commission and knowing that once the world has had opportunity to make a decision of Christ, the end/beginning will come. Matt. 24:14


Sounds like you had quite the experience in the church growing up. Trust me, us church people can be the worst be around...I know.

Thank you for your openness and willingness to dialogue.

[Landrover]

Don’t give everyone credit for 3lbs.

Keep it civil, keep it civil!
As most adults know the first to belittle, degrade, name call or cuss are always the ones that cannot defend their position any better than a 4 year old!

[JLivi1224]

[quote=MadHatter;13258718]

When you say you are called to do it, it is our purpose on earth, who all does that include?
I mentioned wild people earlier. No one has ever encountered one who was already saved and actively spreading the gospel. Why not? Another poster said no such people exist, but in my eyes they do. I listen to the missionaries as a kid talk about these heathens, how desperately we need to take the Gospel to them, etc....Why? Does god not speak to them, same as me and you? Had I been a little older I would have asked the missionaries in my church this same thing. All the ones they don't reach, what about them? They talk about how they are headed to a devils hell, and desperately need to hear gods word. If god gives them all a chance, why so much concern. Is there chance not as good as yours or mine? Do they not get the same fair shake?
Someone said these questions are loaded, I don't mean it that way. If you see it that way, don't reply. So far we've managed to not bring the hammer down, so I would like to keep it that way.

Actually, I don’t take them as loaded at all. I feel that as far as your responses are concerned, you are raising genuine questions that you would like a genuine answer for. That says to me that you at least have some interest in hearing the other side, and that you have not entirely closed your heart to God. That is refreshing.
The question about the people in remote parts of the world is not new. It is a question that is been asked many times over. I believe God does speak to these people. There is not a soul out there that God condemns to hell without them having an opportunity to come to know him. That is not the way my God works. I can tell you that there are many Christians out there today, myself included, that were not pursuing God actively when God reached out to pursue us. That is how a lot of us have such Blind Faith. That is how a lot of us have so much conviction, and zero doubt. For me, he delivered me from alcoholism in one breath. In one plea, one cry, I begged him for help And he completely removed the taste from my mouth. This is not a flawed interpretation of events. This does not just happen. This was an act that only my God, and your God, is capable of. I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt had this not happened to be nearly 6 years ago I would either be dead or in prison. The biggest fault in the “wild” people argument, is that people make an assumption that if one is never taught about god that one will never know God. But the key to this, as I mentioned above, is that God pursues us. There are countless testimonies from missionaries who have had indigenous people approach them and through translators tell them that they know something is missing. That they know they were meant for something more. That they look around them and see how full the world is and how intertwined it is, yet feel emptiness inside of themselves. Why is that? That they know there is a creator, and want to know more about him. I will be the first to admit that not every question from a nonbeliever will have an answer. That is one of the most freeing things about faith, and about our belief in our Savior Jesus Christ. We don’t have to have answers. It’s OK for us to not know. It is a simple belief that his thoughts are higher than our thoughts and his ways are higher than our ways. We cannot stuff God Into a finite space. He created space, therefore cannot be contained by it.

[MadHatter]

thats interesting. it seems like you admire the people, love and respect your family, were not turned off by any pharisaical type behavior, and were learned in solid biblical teachings, yet never felt a call up till now.

of course it aint over yet. as you experience the world outside of your upbringing, you could always become convicted, that there was something deeper and very real that make your loved ones walk the walk. i mean no one behaves that well on their own, right? maybe thats just me idk.

it should be easy to decide if it was true Spirit filled lives that you witnessed, or if it was all just self inflicted brain washing...i dont see another option.

id bet big, [yeah yeah, i know] that you will come to believe. with all the pleadings of your family, The Lord aint gonna forget about you.

There is no brainwashing, no snakes, they are not telling people to not go to the doctor, just pray for Gods healing, etc.. It was a solid upbringing, and I've never regretted any of it. Actually it's quite the opposite, and I'm quite thankful. As a kid there was never a opportunity for drugs in my life, premarrital sex, drinking, etc...Kept me out of a lot of trouble I'm sure. Grew up with 0 drama whatsoever, never had a drunk parent, parent in jail, parent that couldn't pay the bills, parent that fought, etc...Never heard my mother say a single bad word in her life (including, gosh, heck, darn, or gee, all derivitives of cusswords), or ever once seen her angry.
Her god is real, her expierance is real. Why? Simply because she believes it strongly enough. Its real for HER, not me. Your mind has the ability to believe anything you want it to. You create your own reality. Even the bible tells us that. Tell a lie long enough, you will eventually believe it.
Now here's the catch, there are Buddhist, Islamist, American Indians, etc...who all have expierances, just as real as my mothers. They see the hand of their god, working in their life. Their god shows them things, and makes them aware, just like my mother. Indoctrination is the reason, in my opinion. This has already been mentioned, but I don't think people grasp the implication. The mind is fascinating object, in the way beliefs are developed.
You grew up in a protestant country, it's what you've heard, and known, your entire life. It's what your brain accepted, before you knew your brain was doing anything. Yes there are converts, but imo they just found a better story that fit in with their personal thoughts on the matter.
Ever wondered why missionaries could go to a village, and convert the whole village. Because they knew nothing, and had no prior beliefs they could substantiate, etc...Heres a guy with a book, and a host of literature, and evidence for his God. These people just latch right on. They've never left their 20 sq mile range, this guy flew across a Ocean. And it doesn't matter what religion, the pattern is repeatable. Try taking the same amount of indoctrinated people, and see how many converts you get.
This consumed my life as a early adult, as I was indoctrinated more than most I believe. In the beginning it scared me to death. Every question I ask though, and everywhere I looked, all pointed at 1 thing for me. Human nature, and the development of your mind, nothing more or less.
WE CREATE OUR REALITY.

[RiverRat1]

I was raised, what they coin Old Fashioned Holiness. Their beliefs are like the Quakers, Old Methodist, Nazarene, etc.. John Wesleys preaching if you will. Original we were part of the Friends church (my grandfather pastored one of their churches), and as their standards grew lax, we started going to the Bible Missionary church. I grew up with no TV, radio, video games, women don't wear makeup, cut there hair, wear jewelery, bows in their hair, high heels, or pants, no shorts, or short sleeves on either sex, men don't have facial hair, you don't go to the movies, amusement parks, etc.., you don't play organized sport, etc.., you don't have internet in the home, you don't bring a smart phone in Gods house, etc..
I will say this, they live a life devouted to God, and you never will hear of a scandal in the church. No one is sleeping with someone elses wife, the pastor isn't sleeping with someon3s wife, etc...It doesn't exist. They would drive 3 hrs to work, to make 20k a yr, rather than drive 5 min to make 150k a yr if it required them to work even 1 sunday a yr.
I was raised this way, never had it crammed down my throat, it was just my life. I didn't know any better, and never rebelled against Christianity. Simple could never believe any of it, after about the age of 14-15. The entire church met for 2 weeks, 1 hr a night to pray around me at the alter, around the age of 12. I never felt any conviction in my whole life, so the pastor suggested the whole church meet with me. Nothing.
For the record, I never heardened my heart as they say, or rejected God. The belief has simply never existed for me. How, why, I do not know.

Not saying this applies to you, but I've seen quite a few people raised in churches that are plain wrong Or turned them off for some reason. Some of these people eventually try other churches and find the right one..Some avoid religion the rest of their lives.

It's sad to see people (in general) have a bad experience at church but not realize that there are good churches out there. I didn't realize this until the church I went to blew up and I tried to find another one. There are some seriously screwed up churches/people out there.. It's crazy.

Also amazing how different each church can be. And a few "christian" churches I wouldn't even call Christian.

[MadHatter]

[quote=JLivi1224;13258809]

Actually, I don’t take them as loaded at all. I feel that as far as your responses are concerned, you are raising genuine questions that you would like a genuine answer for. That says to me that you at least have some interest in hearing the other side, and that you have not entirely closed your heart to God. That is refreshing.
The question about the people in remote parts of the world is not new. It is a question that is been asked many times over. I believe God does speak to these people. There is not a soul out there that God condemns to hell without them having an opportunity to come to know him. That is not the way my God works. I can tell you that there are many Christians out there today, myself included, that were not pursuing God actively when God reached out to pursue us. That is how a lot of us have such Blind Faith. That is how a lot of us have so much conviction, and zero doubt. For me, he delivered me from alcoholism in one breath. In one plea, one cry, I begged him for help And he completely removed the taste from my mouth. This is not a flawed interpretation of events. This does not just happen. This was an act that only my God, and your God, is capable of. I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt had this not happened to be nearly 6 years ago I would either be dead or in prison. The biggest fault in the “wild” people argument, is that people make an assumption that if one is never taught about god that one will never know God. But the key to this, as I mentioned above, is that God pursues us. There are countless testimonies from missionaries who have had indigenous people approach them and through translators tell them that they know something is missing. That they know they were meant for something more. That they look around them and see how full the world is and how intertwined it is, yet feel emptiness inside of themselves. Why is that? That they know there is a creator, and want to know more about him. I will be the first to admit that not every question from a nonbeliever will have an answer. That is one of the most freeing things about faith, and about our belief in our Savior Jesus Christ. We don’t have to have answers. It’s OK for us to not know. It is a simple belief that his thoughts are higher than our thoughts and his ways are higher than our ways. We cannot stuff God Into a finite space. He created space, therefore cannot be contained by it.

To that I would say, those people are unlearned, un educated, and know very little of the world. They understand very little, and have answers to nothing. A loving, all supreme being, responsible for everything, answers all their questions.
Say you were a wild person with a literary mind, you were saved late in life, and read tye bible for the first time.
The bible is telling you, you were born to worship god, to spread his word, to love your fellow man, etc...Now here sits this cannabible thinking, "How can this be". I am almost dead, have never heard of God, spent my entire life worshipping a fire, and eating my fellow man, yet this book tells me I was created for something, I've never known about. I was never able to do anything for you God. Would you some how feel slighted, if you believed god created you to share his Gospel, love your fellow man, etc...
BTW, appreciate the response fellows.

BTW

[Tracy moss]

Madhatter in the old fashion holiness what were there teachings on how to becomes saved?

[Death from Above]

We were created for fellowship with God...He makes that eternally possible with Jesus.

[MadHatter]

Not saying this applies to you, but I've seen quite a few people raised in churches that are plain wrong Or turned them off for some reason. Some of these people eventually try other churches and find the right one..Some avoid religion the rest of their lives.

It's sad to see people (in general) have a bad experience at church but not realize that there are good churches out there. I didn't realize this until the church I went to blew up and I tried to find another one. There are some seriously screwed up churches/people out there.. It's crazy.

Also amazing how different each church can be. And a few "christian" churches I wouldn't even call Christian.

I agree 100%! If I ever did get in church, it would be my mothers church. I've never seen another like it. They are good people, with good intentions, and absolutely live the way they believe. They don't waver, and they are not lukewarm. They also aren't crazy, like some hardcore churches, that give religion a bad name.
The way they act, their standards, to the way they preach, has 0 to do with why I feel the way I do.
It was simply me trying to find God for myself. Some of you really don't understand. God was what life was about, God was why we did what we did, God, God, God. It's what I thought was 100% percent truth. It was all I knew. As a kid I would talk to God like he was right there, out loud. My mother caught me more than once. She was extremely touched, and cried the first time.
God has never talked back. God never let me feel anything. I've never once thought God moved me to serve him, etx... You can't imagine the 100's of nights I've spent standing, during the alter call, with loved ones pleading with me to go to the alter. I absolutely came to dread revivals, and camp meeting.
There was never anything that compelled me to go. It has always been like pleading with a wooden bench to save my soul. It became redundant.
Being saved and sanctified was something I WANTED from an early age. For whatever reason I could never get there. No one was ever talking back. I was innocent then, a kid. Gods says anyone that ask shall recieve. Didn't work like that for me. I've had the, "heavens are brass scripture quoted at me so many times its funny. A 9 yr old boy shouldn't have to worry about brass heavens.
The older I got, the more I learned, the further I delved, it made less and less sense, until I no longer cared, and arrived where I am today.

[PondPopper]

Referring to post 415...

Crickets!!

[monsterspike]

Madhatter in the old fashion holiness what were there teachings on how to becomes saved?

yeah im wondering this also. interesting conversation.

[JLivi1224]

[quote=MadHatter;13258852]

To that I would say, those people are unlearned, un educated, and know very little of the world. They understand very little, and have answers to nothing. A loving, all supreme being, responsible for everything, answers all their questions.
Say you were a wild person with a literary mind, you were saved late in life, and read tye bible for the first time.
The bible is telling you, you were born to worship god, to spread his word, to love your fellow man, etc...Now here sits this cannabible thinking, "How can this be". I am almost dead, have never heard of God, spent my entire life worshipping a fire, and eating my fellow man, yet this book tells me I was created for something, I've never known about. I was never able to do anything for you God. Would you some how feel slighted, if you believed god created you to share his Gospel, love your fellow man, etc...
BTW, appreciate the response fellows.

BTW

Giving your life to the Lord on your first day, or your last day, nets the same personal result. The decision to give his life to God could very well in itself minister to others.

[MadHatter]

Madhatter in the old fashion holiness what were there teachings on how to becomes saved?

They believed in being saved and sanctified. 2 works of grace. Being saved is saying, God I will follow you, start righting my wrongs, following your footsteps, and putting my life on a path to serve you.

Also, these are MY words describing it, please take it as that. I do believe them to be a accurate description of the way I was raised.

Back on topic. So now were saved. You start making restitutions, quit smoking, quit drinking, get rid of your tv, quit going to bars, the theater, if a women cutting your hair, wearing makeup, etc... These are all church beliefs, and part of the standards, as per the church manual.

Once you have made every restitution God has shown you, no matter the cost, to include flying around the world, or going to jail (seen both happen and many more), you have quit all bad habits, smoking, cussing, add nauseam.....are living by church standards, and walking in all the light god has shown you, then you can start thinking about sanctification.
During this time, if you die, you will go to heaven, you have shown God you are willing to serve him, and you are doing, and have done, everything he is showing you.
Now, during this time, say you just got saved, the church does not believe in tv in the home, but we're now 2 weeks in, and you still haven't gotten rid of your tv, either you didn't get saved, or you backslid. Church standards are considered as no brainer laws, if you are in this church.
Women don't wear pants, so you get saved, a week later your still wearing pants, you either backslid, or didn't get saved. You will go directly to hell, do not pass go, or collect $200.
Things like smoking, dipping, they understand these are addictions, and take time, but god overcomes everything. The devil is gonna make it hard, and throw everything he has at you, but in the end god will deliver you.
I've seen people quit overnight, and never touch it again. Some may take several months. The church does not care, you will go to heaven, even though you are smoking, dipping, you are doing everything in your power, the rest of your life exemplifies that, and god will deliver you. Now if your a yr in, still smoking a pack a day, you either weren't saved or backslid.

So back on track. Your saved, walking in all the light, and church people are explaining sanctification. 2nd work of grace.
Now all bad habits are behind you, every restitution has been made, you know wholly concecrate your life to Christ. This is where you rid yourself of the carnal nature. This is where you really think, and 100% totally give your entire life to Christ. Once past this point, there is no backsliding, once past this point, there's no shadow of doubt you will die a Christian. This is where you never again become angry, you turn the other cheek 100% of the time, 100% percent of the time. Once to this point you pray for weeks and weeks and think about every weekness you have, every battle and temptation that you wrestle with, and you reach a point, where these things never again become a problem, you lose all temptaion, etc...Satan has 0% chance once past this part.
It's a pretty deep thing. In my mind is was always people wrestling demons, from tv, to country music, to smoking, to pot. You god and satan battle at the alter for months if need be, until a switch in your mind is flipped, from which point you will never return. From a psychology standpoint, this all makes perfect sense to me, and falls right into HUMAN NATURE once again.
To that point, I will say, out of 100's of churches, and 1000's of people, I've only ever know but a single person who turned from the church, and backslid, go back, whatever it is you call it.

That is sanctification.