Wolf killed

[WItoTX]

So are you saying that adding wolves to the mix wouldn’t have a significant effect on the elk population?

I am saying that prior to wolves, everyone complained about mountain lions and bears. When you look at actual takes by wolves vs mountain lions and bear per capita, it's a less.

And we as humans shouldn't get to decide what is and isn't extirpated from this planet just because we don't like them. We should be able to hunt wolves, not to extinction, but to managed levels.

Every time someone says "kill them all" they just make the argument for anti hunters, who use that line to convert non hunters (Who generally approve of hunting) to their side. All they have to say is "see, those hunters over there, they just want everything extinct".

[Ironman]

Sika, thanks for that photo; I’m going to try have that printed out and framed for my study!

That being said, humans kill three times as many elk as wolves do in Wyoming. The greatest pressure wolves put on the elk herds is January through March; after the time when humans put the most pressure on them. But it isn’t hunting that is causing the elk herds to relocate or shrink, it’s degradation of their habitat due to weather conditions and human development. In summation, humans are more responsible for the perceived decline in the elk herds than wolves are.

I’m kind of disappointed in the responses here that advocate poaching and SSS, especially after the 271/278 and Troup’s dog threads.

Not true. Elk herds can be managed and maintained by allowed license numbers. Wolves kill indiscriminately. It is well known that wolves kill, just to kill, and not just for food. Elk herds across the west have been maintained for decades, at balanced numbers, until the introduction of the Canadian wolf.

[Ironman]

I am saying that prior to wolves, everyone complained about mountain lions and bears. When you look at actual takes by wolves vs mountain lions and bear per capita, it's a less.

And we as humans shouldn't get to decide what is and isn't extirpated from this planet just because we don't like them. We should be able to hunt wolves, not to extinction, but to managed levels.

Every time someone says "kill them all" they just make the argument for anti hunters, who use that line to convert non hunters (Who generally approve of hunting) to their side. All they have to say is "see, those hunters over there, they just want everything extinct".

Which is an oxymoron, considering the fact that if it weren't for hunters, even the whitetail deer could very easily have been extinct by now. Nice try though.

[Bowtech1233]

I am saying that prior to wolves, everyone complained about mountain lions and bears. When you look at actual takes by wolves vs mountain lions and bear per capita, it's a less.

And we as humans shouldn't get to decide what is and isn't extirpated from this planet just because we don't like them. We should be able to hunt wolves, not to extinction, but to managed levels.

Every time someone says "kill them all" they just make the argument for anti hunters, who use that line to convert non hunters (Who generally approve of hunting) to their side. All they have to say is "see, those hunters over there, they just want everything extinct".

So my thinking is that if lions and bears kill 500 elk then we introduce wolves that kill 150 elk, now we’re losing 650 elk. But then if we don’t allow hunting of the wolves that 150 will grow to be 200 then 250 and so on. My big issue is when we allow introduction of wolves and don’t manage them.

[ThePumaLives]

Not true. Elk herds can be managed and maintained by allowed license numbers. Wolves kill indiscriminately. It is well known that wolves kill, just to kill, and not just for food. Elk herds across the west have been maintained for decades, at balanced numbers, until the introduction of the Canadian wolf.

What’s not true? Also, everything you said applies to humans more than wolves except that nature kept the elk herds balanced for thousands of years versus the decades that humans did it; except the current fluctuation in the herd is caused by changes in habitat (caused by humans) and weather conditions (depending on your views about global warming this may or may not be our fault).

[Ironman]

What’s not true? Also, everything you said applies to humans more than wolves except that nature kept the elk herds balanced for thousands of years versus the decades that humans did it; except the current fluctuation in the herd is caused by changes in habitat (caused by humans) and weather conditions (depending on your views about global warming this may or may not be our fault).

You said humans are more responsible for the perceived decline. The decline is not perceived, its real. And it's not from humans. There is direct evidence to prove the decline in elk numbers since the introduction of a non-native predator.

[Texans42]

Lol, bears are the number 1 killer of calves, by a lot. The grass is always greener, right?

I would love a wolf fur on my wall, especially that one.

Most studies where Pre-wolf introduction, and those that where concurrent where in light wolf areas. Bears also only target calves. Wolves target all sizes.

There is a reason the wolfaboos wanted frankchurch study tossed

[Texans42]

What’s not true? Also, everything you said applies to humans more than wolves except that nature kept the elk herds balanced for thousands of years versus the decades that humans did it; except the current fluctuation in the herd is caused by changes in habitat (caused by humans) and weather conditions (depending on your views about global warming this may or may not be our fault).

In the end the agruement is simple. Either people control elk populations in current fringe habitat or wolves do.

[ThePumaLives]

You said humans are more responsible for the perceived decline. The decline is not perceived, its real. And it's not from humans. There is direct evidence to prove the decline in elk numbers since the introduction of a non-native predator.

Correlation doesn’t equal causation. The numbers of elk are within parameters of natural fluctuation; that’s why I said decline. The elk are also in excellent physical health, another sign that this is a natural fluctuation. The fluctuation is being impacted by outside factors though; loss of habitat (humans), weather changes (may or not be humans), hunting (humans), and then predation (nature). Again, humans are the leading cause of the fluctuation, not predation.

[Ironman]

Correlation doesn’t equal causation. The numbers of elk are within parameters of natural fluctuation; that’s why I said decline. The elk are also in excellent physical health, another sign that this is a natural fluctuation. The fluctuation is being impacted by outside factors though; loss of habitat (humans), weather changes (may or not be humans), hunting (humans), and then predation (nature). Again, humans are the leading cause of the fluctuation, not predation.

Explain the Yellowstone herd then.

[ThePumaLives]

In the end the agruement is simple. Either people control elk populations in current fringe habitat or wolves do.

In my opinion, work with what nature gives us; if the elk herd can only sustain 30k losses in a year and wolves kill 8k, then issue 22k permits to hunters. Once the wolf population reaches a balance with other animal herds (deer, Buffalo, so on and on) then issue permits for wolf hunting. Hunting an animal to extinction is not the solution, we as sport hunters (assumption on my part, there may be some members who hunt elk for subsistence) have to adapt to nature.

[WRasco]

That is a biggggg dog.

X2

[Ironman]

In my opinion, work with what nature gives us; if the elk herd can only sustain 30k losses in a year and wolves kill 8k, then issue 22k permits to hunters. Once the wolf population reaches a balance with other animal herds (deer, Buffalo, so on and on) then issue permits for wolf hunting. Hunting an animal to extinction is not the solution, we as sport hunters (assumption on my part, there may be some members who hunt elk for subsistence) have to adapt to nature.

Adapt to nature? Then why introduce a non-native predator?

[eradicator]

Sika, thanks for that photo; I’m going to try have that printed out and framed for my study!

That being said, humans kill three times as many elk as wolves do in Wyoming. The greatest pressure wolves put on the elk herds is January through March; after the time when humans put the most pressure on them. But it isn’t hunting that is causing the elk herds to relocate or shrink, it’s degradation of their habitat due to weather conditions and human development. In summation, humans are more responsible for the perceived decline in the elk herds than wolves are.

I’m kind of disappointed in the responses here that advocate poaching and SSS, especially after the 271/278 and Troup’s dog threads.

And what about livestock?

[ThePumaLives]

Explain the Yellowstone herd then.

Declining pregnancy rates and calves dying before their first birthday.

Of those calves, 15% were killed by wolves and 60% were killed by bears. The number killed by bears had more than doubled in twenty years, so why did the bears become so much more reliant on elk in their diet? Because there was a change in the fish populations that bears were previously reliant on. The change? Humans (sport fisherman) illegally releasing fish which wreaked havoc on their populations. The bears were then forced to eat more elk. A much bigger cause of the decline of the Yellowstone herd is due to changing weather patterns that have impacted the grasses of Yellowstone and has depleted the nutritional value of female elk which has resulted in lower pregnancy rates, which is not a problem seen in herds outside of Yellowstone. Again, wolves at the bottom of the list.