Loud bow/Heavy arrow

[samson33]

So the laws of Physics fail to apply when you put fletching on an arrow....Nice to know. I will let the world know that Newton, Einstein and many other have been wrong all along.

They also do not shoot Cape with an arrow traveling 100fps. It would fail dismally even with 750gr. Realize this is slower than a short stop throws to first base.

This is why for archery on dangerous game there is a minimum arrow weight requirement AND a minimum poundage requirement with many differentiating for Compound vs Trad.

KE and Momentum travel together. When you increase one you almost always increase the other.

If you are shooting the same bow (no change in the input to the system) the heavier arrow wins not by increasing the momentum (which it does) but increasing the efficiency to which the bow transfers the KE to the arrow.

KE does work (cutting blood vessels, cutting skin and breaking bone). Momentum just resists a change to its inertial state. While they are similar and travel in the same pack, they are not the same.

The examples you use are like saying. The .458 Lott is better than the .45 ACP because it is a heavier bullet and has more momentum.

No.......it is better because the 2 have nowhere near the same KE or Gunpowder......like shown above when I fixed the baseball/bowling ball analogy.

Quit using the calculators and go do some real world testing. The truth will show up.

[tradslam]

Good lord I need a drink after reading this thread, unless the OP is hunting Cape Buffalo relax lol.

OP, get a an total arrow weight in the mid 400 grains, spine of 340(might change with brand) also back the weight off since you just starting, 63-65 is plenty, run a 100-125 tip and your good to go. If you want to run more FOC jump up a bracket for a stiffer arrow.

Broadheads, mech or fixed should be ok out of that rig with your DL (shoot whatever you decide before you hunt). I'd run a fixed if you chasing giant hogs. Other then that go knock some stuff down.

[postman]

Kinetic energy is a marketing tool.[/QUOTE]

Speed, kinetic energy, arrow weight/diameter, carbon aluminum all to make you think what you have won't work and sell you something different. I bet what you have will kill all the deer you can eat at reasonable ranges.

Look what the Indians killed deer with !!

[flywise]

Kinetic energy is a marketing tool.

Speed, kinetic energy, arrow weight/diameter, carbon aluminum all to make you think what you have won't work and sell you something different. I bet what you have will kill all the deer you can eat at reasonable ranges.

Look what the Indians killed deer with !![/QUOTE]


Yep, no need to look any further than the trad. Threads. Ain't no one going fast and still filling freezers full

[Outbreaker]

Quit using the calculators and go do some real world testing. The truth will show up.

I have done more real world testing on both live and dead things than you would believe with your blinders on.

With the same bow a light and a fast arrow will perform about the same (no statistical significance). Math and physics do not lie......they don't.

In order for what you are saying to happen the laws of physics would have to be suspended.

[Outbreaker]

A 250gr arrow at 300 fps would be lucky to get 6" of penetration on a muskox. The 750gr would most likely pass completely through, although your 100 fps would be considerably slow by today's equipment capabilities

Like you are saying the 100 FPS is SLOW and would also penetrate about 6" or less with the same broadhead.

[dk_ace]

If you’re shooting 70 lb at 31” draw you can forget about worrying about speed. You’ve got a lot of energy and a huge power stroke. If you had a 26” draw you might give some consideration to speed. I shoot 31” as well, and I like to keep speeds between 260 and 285 as broadhead equipped arrows are pretty easy to get shooting very well in that speed range. I shoot a pretty heavy arrow as a result. Penetration is no issue at all for me and the bow shoots quieter with a heavy arrow as well (which might help more than speed with regards to the string jumping issue).

You could try to maximize your speed, and with your specs you could launch an arrow super fast. However, you’re unlikely to gain much of an advantage regarding string jumping. You’ll probably have a terrible time trying to get broadheads to shoot well, and it may not be possible at all with fixed blade heads.

I’d vote for a heavy arrow setup for you. I might have different advice for someone drawing 50 lbs at 26” draw.

D

[Outbreaker]

Quit using the calculators and go do some real world testing. The truth will show up.

To give you an idea of the testing I have done here is one. I was looking for a heavier quieter arrow without having to go to aluminum or change spine. Each arrow hit a new clean area of the target.

1 Bow. 70# (can go up to 78) and carbon arrows that weighed at the time 415gr total weight.

I shot 20 shots into a new foam target and measured the depth of penetration.

I then added weed eater string to the center of the carbon. It added about 100gr of weight without affecting spine.

I shot 20 shots into a different foam target and measured the depth of penetration.

I then added silicone aquarium tubing AND weed eater string. This added about 300gr to my arrows.

I shot 20 shots into a different foam target and measured the depth of penetration.

I then cranked the poundage up to 78 and shot the heavy arrows 20 shots into a different foam target and measured the depth of penetration.

At the same poundage the penetration difference was not statistically significant. The noise and vibration were greatly reduced.

At 8# heavier there was a massive difference. But this was not due to the change in arrow.......it was due to the change of energy added to the system.

[SharpStix]

Sorry, but KE is not where it is at with bowhunting set ups. MOMENTUM is where it is at and the more momentum you have the better the penetration should be.

Beat me to it. Manufacturers like to church up their advertising campaigns with big KE numbers because saying 0.57 momentum doesn't sound as exciting as 75 ft-lb. In other terms, KE is how hard you hit the wall, momentum is how far you take the wall with you.

[Outbreaker]

Beat me to it. Manufacturers like to church up their advertising campaigns with big KE numbers because saying 0.57 momentum doesn't sound as exciting as 75 ft-lb. In other terms, KE is how hard you hit the wall, momentum is how far you take the wall with you.

So a bow that generates more KE will not also have more momentum? I guarantee you it will.

[muddyfuzzy]

Loud bow/Heavy arrow

So a bow that generates more KE will not also have more momentum? I guarantee you it will.

You are missing the point entirely.... too wrapped up in the math.

What folks are speaking to is the approach of building a complete arrow system as it relates to potential lethality and how to quantify it. Math is the math, and it always works itself out. It’s okay to poke fun at Ashby this and that but seriously do you build your setup around speed? Mass weight? Both? People make a lot of assumptions on numbers. Your confidence in the math takes you out of realistic and practical circles. I go back to the original analogy you used of a 250 grain arrow going 300 FPS vs a 750 grain arrow going 100 FPS having the same momentum numbers. Neither the speed for the heavier example or mass weight numbers for the lighter are practical nor manageable. The fact you had to stretch to otherwise extreme theory in your examples to attempt to demonstrate a correlation shows fundamental flaw in your approach.

Real world man, real world.

On another side note penetration testing on foam targets is not going to work. It’s flawed, been proven flawed and in no way shows any definitive results. I appreciate you trying to figure things out but if it was that simple we’d all be better off, but it’s not.

[Outbreaker]

You are missing the point entirely.... too wrapped up in the math.

What folks are speaking to is the approach of building a complete arrow system as it relates to potential lethality and how to quantify it. Math is the math, and it always works itself out. It’s okay to poke fun at Ashby this and that but seriously do you build your setup around speed? Mass weight? Both? People make a lot of assumptions on numbers. Your confidence in the math takes you out of realistic and practical circles. I go back to the original analogy you used of a 250 grain arrow going 300 FPS vs a 750 grain arrow going 100 FPS having the same momentum numbers. Neither the speed for the heavier example or mass weight numbers for the lighter are practical nor manageable. The fact you had to stretch to otherwise extreme theory in your examples to attempt to demonstrate a correlation shows fundamental flaw in your approach.

Real world man, real world.

I get the point. You seem to be missing it.

If you could actually read you would see that I did a real world controlled study and it showed that a bow of capable of producing X energy and it does not matter if you shoot a heavy or light arrow the penetration will be the same. If you increase the energy that the bow has to start the penetration increases.

Virtually all your arguments are not about KE vs Momentum. Because the underlying boss are generating different amounts of energy.

Theories are best tested at extremes, which is why I did it. If it holds then it is usually right. As I have said, I have done more research into this topic in a scientific controlled environment than you would believe. Real world data, not anacdotal stories, or theory.

[muddyfuzzy]

I get the point. You seem to be missing it.



If you could actually read you would see that I did a real world controlled study and it showed that a bow of capable of producing X energy and it does not matter if you shoot a heavy or light arrow the penetration will be the same. If you increase the energy that the bow has to start the penetration increases.



Virtually all your arguments are not about KE vs Momentum. Because the underlying boss are generating different amounts of energy.



Theories are best tested at extremes, which is why I did it. If it holds then it is usually right. As I have said, I have done more research into this topic in a scientific controlled environment than you would believe. Real world data, not anacdotal stories, or theory.

Sounds good I’m out, you have the last word.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Outbreaker]

You are missing the point entirely.... too wrapped up in the math.

What folks are speaking to is the approach of building a complete arrow system as it relates to potential lethality and how to quantify it. Math is the math, and it always works itself out. It’s okay to poke fun at Ashby this and that but seriously do you build your setup around speed? Mass weight? Both? People make a lot of assumptions on numbers. Your confidence in the math takes you out of realistic and practical circles. I go back to the original analogy you used of a 250 grain arrow going 300 FPS vs a 750 grain arrow going 100 FPS having the same momentum numbers. Neither the speed for the heavier example or mass weight numbers for the lighter are practical nor manageable. The fact you had to stretch to otherwise extreme theory in your examples to attempt to demonstrate a correlation shows fundamental flaw in your approach.

Real world man, real world.

On another side note penetration testing on foam targets is not going to work. It’s flawed, been proven flawed and in no way shows any definitive results. I appreciate you trying to figure things out but if it was that simple we’d all be better off, but it’s not.

Done it with foam, clay, dry sand, wet sand, wet phone books, dry phone books and limited testing on pig carcasses.

All the data was the same as foam. The same bow generates the same penetration and any differences were never statistically significant. All this data is flawed?

[samson33]

[quote=Outbreaker;13116914]To give you an idea of the testing I have done here is one. I was looking for a heavier quieter arrow without having to go to aluminum or change spine. Each arrow hit a new clean area of the target.

1 Bow. 70# (can go up to 78) and carbon arrows that weighed at the time 415gr total weight.

I shot 20 shots into a new foam target and measured the depth of penetration.

I then added weed eater string to the center of the carbon. It added about 100gr of weight without affecting spine.

I shot 20 shots into a different foam target and measured the depth of pen

I then added silicone aquarium tubing AND weed eater string. This added about 300gr to my arrows.

I shot 20 shots into a different foam target and measured the depth of penetration.

I then cranked the poundage up to 78 and shot the heavy arrows 20 shots into a different foam target and measured the depth of penetration.

At the same poundage the penetration difference was not statistically significant. The noise and vibration were greatly reduced.

At 8# heavier there was a massive difference. But this was not due to the change in arrow.......it was due to the change of energy added to the system.[/quote