Loud bow/Heavy arrow

[muddyfuzzy]

So you are saying a 750gr arrow traveling at 100fps do better than a 250 gr arrow going 300fps?

Depending on what you are after it totally can be. 750 at 100 FPS is like a locomotive man, tipped with the right broadhead it can be pretty unstoppable. It’s a bit extreme though a better, more reasonable analogy would be 550 grains at about 250.


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[Outbreaker]

Depending on what you are after it totally can be. 750 at 100 FPS is like a locomotive man, tipped with the right broadhead it can be pretty unstoppable. It’s a bit extreme though a better, more reasonable analogy would be 550 grains at about 250.


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Both the 250gr arrow at 300 and the 750gr arrow have the EXACT SAME momentum!

If the science holds it works at extremes. It is not all about momentum.

Infact if both of these arrows have the exact same cut to point broadhead the 250gr will penetrate further since it has 3 times the KE.

[muddyfuzzy]

Both the 250gr arrow at 300 and the 750gr arrow have the EXACT SAME momentum!



If the science holds it works at extremes. It is not all about momentum.



Infact if both of these arrows have the exact same cut to point broadhead the 250gr will penetrate further since it has 3 times the KE.

Negatory


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[muddyfuzzy]

You see that’s the problem, guys get all wrapped up in numbers and online calculators. If that logic held true guys would be shooting Cape with the 250 grain set up but it’s simply not done, ever..... and there is good reason for it, it doesn’t translate into lethality. Play with it all you want but it’s just not the same.


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[Outbreaker]

You see that’s the problem, guys get all wrapped up in numbers and online calculators. If that logic held true guys would be shooting Cape with the 250 grain set up but it’s simply not done, ever..... and there is good reason for it, it doesn’t translate into lethality. Play with it all you want but it’s just not the same.


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So the laws of Physics fail to apply when you put fletching on an arrow....Nice to know. I will let the world know that Newton, Einstein and many other have been wrong all along.

They also do not shoot Cape with an arrow traveling 100fps. It would fail dismally even with 750gr. Realize this is slower than a short stop throws to first base.

This is why for archery on dangerous game there is a minimum arrow weight requirement AND a minimum poundage requirement with many differentiating for Compound vs Trad.

KE and Momentum travel together. When you increase one you almost always increase the other.

If you are shooting the same bow (no change in the input to the system) the heavier arrow wins not by increasing the momentum (which it does) but increasing the efficiency to which the bow transfers the KE to the arrow.

KE does work (cutting blood vessels, cutting skin and breaking bone). Momentum just resists a change to its inertial state. While they are similar and travel in the same pack, they are not the same.

The examples you use are like saying. The .458 Lott is better than the .45 ACP because it is a heavier bullet and has more momentum.

No.......it is better because the 2 have nowhere near the same KE or Gunpowder......like shown above when I fixed the baseball/bowling ball analogy.

[rocky]

So the laws of Physics fail to apply when you put fletching on an arrow....Nice to know. I will let the world know that Newton, Einstein and many other have been wrong all along.

They also do not shoot Cape with an arrow traveling 100fps. It would fail dismally even with 750gr. Realize this is slower than a short stop throws to first base.

This is why for archery on dangerous game there is a minimum arrow weight requirement AND a minimum poundage requirement with many differentiating for Compound vs Trad.

KE and Momentum travel together. When you increase one you almost always increase the other.

If you are shooting the same bow (no change in the input to the system) the heavier arrow wins not by increasing the momentum (which it does) but increasing the efficiency to which the bow transfers the KE to the arrow.

KE does work (cutting blood vessels, cutting skin and breaking bone). Momentum just resists a change to its inertial state. While they are similar and travel in the same pack, they are not the same.

The examples you use are like saying. The .458 Lott is better than the .45 ACP because it is a heavier bullet and has more momentum.

No.......it is better because the 2 have nowhere near the same KE or Gunpowder......like shown above when I fixed the baseball/bowling ball analogy.

you do know that you're messing with Ashby's followers don't you?

[Outbreaker]

you do know that you're messing with Ashby's followers don't you?

I read his paper. It is not saying anything different that I am.

You want better penetration strive for better efficiency. From the transfer of energy to the arrow, from the use of energy by the arrowhead, from wasting of energy on the impact from the flexing of the arrow shaft......etc etc etc.

Increased arrow weight increases efficiency (to a point).

Once you have a certain amount of KE you can waste it on less efficient broadheads (mechanical etc) which most compounds above 50lbs have. If you shoot traditional you have no KE to waste so you look to eeek out any an all efficiency you can.

KE and Momentum go up and down together on different scales and have different jobs.

[muddyfuzzy]

Seems like you guys have it figured out.


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[rocky]

I read his paper. It is not saying anything different that I am.

You want better penetration strive for better efficiency. From the transfer of energy to the arrow, from the use of energy by the arrowhead, from wasting of energy on the impact from the flexing of the arrow shaft......etc etc etc.

Increased arrow weight increases efficiency (to a point).

Once you have a certain amount of KE you can waste it on less efficient broadheads (mechanical etc) which most compounds above 50lbs have. If you shoot traditional you have no KE to waste so you look to eeek out any an all efficiency you can.

KE and Momentum go up and down together on different scales and have different jobs.

My thoughts exactly.
I don't know where the breaking point is, but a middle of the road approach has been best from my observation.
A balance of speed and weight, with adjustments made for draw length and poundage has been my approach.
It's really not rocket science, although ...........

[popup_menace]

At the end of the day, you’re puttin a sharp stick through an animal. Don’t overthink it. You can figure up your preferred speed, arrow weight, and FOC and give it a shot. Once you zip arrows through a few animals you will see whether or not the setup “works”

[rocky]

At the end of the day, you’re puttin a sharp stick through an animal. Don’t overthink it. You can figure up your preferred speed, arrow weight, and FOC and give it a shot. Once you zip arrows through a few animals you will see whether or not the setup “works”

To a point, you're spot on.
Problems arise when short DL's and low poundage come into play.
I shoot 65 pounds and have a DL of 28", and with a 390 grain arrow I have 64-65 lbs of KE.
My wife has a DL of 25 " and pulls 45ish lbs, so her KE is a lot less, as is her speed.
I've built her arrows for her, and she kills what she hits properly.
My arrows kill what they hit properly.

[Outbreaker]

To a point, you're spot on.
Problems arise when short DL's and low poundage come into play.
I shoot 65 pounds and have a DL of 28", and with a 390 grain arrow I have 64-65 lbs of KE.
My wife has a DL of 25 " and pulls 45ish lbs, so her KE is a lot less, as is her speed.
I've built her arrows for her, and she kills what she hits properly.
My arrows kill what they hit properly.

Less KE........you need more efficiency like traditional arrows. I bet your set for her is heavy for poundage arrows with cut on contact heads.

[popup_menace]

To a point, you're spot on.

Problems arise when short DL's and low poundage come into play.

I shoot 65 pounds and have a DL of 28", and with a 390 grain arrow I have 64-65 lbs of KE.

My wife has a DL of 25 " and pulls 45ish lbs, so her KE is a lot less, as is her speed.

I've built her arrows for her, and she kills what she hits properly.

My arrows kill what they hit properly.

I agree with you. I actually agree with all the folks talking about maximizing their setup. I guess I just spent so much time trying to “perfect” my arrows that I forgot how much fun shooting was.

I shoot 28”/65# with a 470 grain arrow. I’ve blown through everything I have shot with it, so I’d say it works. Some of these conversations are so much better in person or on the phone vs a forum, because the amount of answer you can give this question is enormous.


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[rocky]

Less KE........you need more efficiency like traditional arrows. I bet your set for her is heavy for poundage arrows with cut on contact heads.

Actually no.
Her arrows weigh 290 grains total and her head is an 85 grain Slick Trick.
She absolutely demolishes vitals with her setup.
She killed a 135 inch deer last year, and followed up this year with another 135 inch deer . I'm talking 150- 160 lb Texas backyard bucks.

She blew thru a Kansas buck's shoulder this year also.
In my experience, it's all about balance for each individual.
I'm no expert, but between my wife and I, we've killed 150-160 whitetails and LOTS of pigs with these type set-ups.

[samson33]

So you are saying a 750gr arrow traveling at 100fps do better than a 250 gr arrow going 300fps?

A 250gr arrow at 300 fps would be lucky to get 6" of penetration on a muskox. The 750gr would most likely pass completely through, although your 100 fps would be considerably slow by today's equipment capabilities