13" rule longevity

[bullhead44]

I don't think it will result in genetically smaller racks. I am no scientist though

[walker1983]

If you hunt small low fenced acreage - you should welcome antler restrictions. If you hunt larger tracts of land, and are concerned about population control and improving your property, work w/ a TPWD biologist, and get on at least the MLD 2 program.

[JeffK]

Good point you made. I knew my post would bring out the best in folks. I'm sure the rule is good and I'm sure EVERYONE has benefited from it. My point was, for me and my crew, that only bow hunts very small acreage, we can only take a buck, if we are lucky every 3,4 or 5 years. We are not in the Hill Country or the Golden Triangle where there are more deer and superior genetics. After spending a couple of thousand dollars a year on my 120 acres, trying to be good stewards of the land with 8 acres of food plots and protein feeders for the wildlife, I'd sure like to harvest an animal that I deem appropriate to be taken. I'm smart enough to know what needs to walk and what needs to be taken. Unfortunately, it's not up to me.

How many people hunt on your property? This may indicate that your area or property can only support one buck killed per 100 acres each year without affecting your neighbors. Everyone has to be realistic on the expectations of a property. If 10 people hunt on 20 acres, should they expect to kill 10 bucks each year? Maybe they can, but it will definitely hurt the surrounding properties possibility to kill a buck (especially if the neighbors care about letting deer mature). The ar rule has helped hunting but has hurt shooting.

[PEC]

I've been under this rule for 11 years in Eastland County. Bucks aren't any bigger than they used to be. But I do have tons of small bucks. All I know is, I used to really have a lot of fun hunting and a nice fat 12" 6 point was fun to harvest with my bow and I was a proud archer. Now I go 3-4 years between bow kills because the state thinks I need to harvest P & Y bucks in order to be a happy hunter. 13" bucks only come out at night and during the rut. Sometimes I can't hunt at night or during the rut. That was a joke people. I don't have to take a P&Y deer in order to feel justified. Now, having said that and waiting on the "flamers", I'm sure it's a good rule because the government tells me it is.

Agree... numbers are up but quality hasn't changed. The Good Lord put the animals for man to eat, not grow into some ones Trophy.

[MQ32Shooter]

How many people hunt on your property? This may indicate that your area or property can only support one buck killed per 100 acres each year without affecting your neighbors. Everyone has to be realistic on the expectations of a property. If 10 people hunt on 20 acres, should they expect to kill 10 bucks each year? Maybe they can, but it will definitely hurt the surrounding properties possibility to kill a buck (especially if the neighbors care about letting deer mature). The ar rule has helped hunting but has hurt shooting.

Too many for my acreage and I know that. The point is, only 1 LEGAL buck gets harvested every 3-4 years, while bunches of forkys, sixes and small 8's run around.

[MQ32Shooter]

Agree... numbers are up but quality hasn't changed. The Good Lord put the animals for man to eat, not grow into some ones Trophy.

Thanks PEC for understanding my original post. I don't have to take a monster to enjoy my place and hunting. I'm a good land and wildlife steward and would like to harvest appropriate animals that I have observed and have a good idea of where they are headed in 4-5 years. My genetics are very narrow. This is a 10 that I've watched for 3 years now. Had him at 15 yards several times last year. He might be 13", but I follow the law, was not 100% sure, so he got another pass. Got him again this season on the game cams. Has not grown one bit, up or out. Guess he needs another year.

[JMKro]

I've been under this rule for 11 years in Eastland County. Bucks aren't any bigger than they used to be. But I do have tons of small bucks. All I know is, I used to really have a lot of fun hunting and a nice fat 12" 6 point was fun to harvest with my bow and I was a proud archer. Now I go 3-4 years between bow kills because the state thinks I need to harvest P & Y bucks in order to be a happy hunter. 13" bucks only come out at night and during the rut. Sometimes I can't hunt at night or during the rut. That was a joke people. I don't have to take a P&Y deer in order to feel justified. Now, having said that and waiting on the "flamers", I'm sure it's a good rule because the government tells me it is.

You hit the nail on the head. I'm pretty picky when it comes to choosing what deer to shoot, but I don't think it's right for me to tell the guy on the neighboring property how picky or not picky he should be (especially by law). The guys who hunt on the property next to me aren't as management oriented as I am, but in a way that's a good thing to me. If they go out opening morning and shoot the first buck they see, that's it. They're done for the season. Which means that the 5 other bucks that are shooters/have potential are still alive. Also, hunters in general are a lot more management oriented than they used to be. Same thing with fishing. And, as always, money plays a role. Do you think the wealthy guy who drives 8 hours to a deer lease that he's paying out the you know what for is going to be happy when his neighbor kills the 3.5 year old buck he's been "growing"? Money influences laws and political decisions. Game laws included.

[tbgascorer]

I think the problem is that the state has to regulate the masses, not individuals. If everyone intensely managed their property, the state would not likely care less what you kill. In fact you can look at an MLD 3 place where it is almost unrestricted what you can kill and is only regulated by the number of tags given for that property. The MLD 3 also gives a much longer season.

Take fishing as an example. If a guy buys a saltwater fishing license but only goes once or twice a year, he still has to abide by the state mandated limits. On the upper Texas coast that can be 10 speckled trout a day. If he goes that once and catches 50 fish (which is certainly possible some days), what does it really matter on the population? If that guy is caught with those 50 specks then he is going to have one heck of a fine. Now look at his neighbor who has the exact same license. He goes an average of 3 times a month and averages 7 fish each time. He is catching over 250 specks a year. Who does the most harm to the fish population, the guy that averages 7 per trip or the guy that catches 50 in one day but never goes again that year?What would the guy that goes 3 times a month do to the population if it was unrestricted? Would he take 1,000 out?

If everyone did the "right thing" then we could do away with a lot of laws and not just gaming laws. My hunch is that many people will do what they can legally do and not what might morally, ethically or reasonably correct.

For that reason, I think states have to regulate the masses and not individual situations as a general rule. For the general health of the herd I think it helps to allow deer to grow more than a year before being killed. Unfortunately in many areas that simply will not happen without the AR. I probably helps huge amounts in some areas but might hurt a few that were already "intensely managed".

In my opinion.

Agreed, just sucks in my position.

[tvc184]

Agree... numbers are up but quality hasn't changed. The Good Lord put the animals for man to eat, not grow into some ones Trophy.

You are entirely correct.

However....

1. 13" is hardly a trophy.

2. How many people hunt just to eat?

[MQ32Shooter]

You are entirely correct.

However....

1. 13" is hardly a trophy.

2. How many people hunt just to eat?

Why do you have to kill a "Trophy" to have fun and enjoy your efforts of food plots, feeders, and managing your land and wildlife?? Remember, a trophy in one man's eye, might not be the same in another's. There's guys on here that pass up 150's all day long, because they can. Does that mean that a minimum P & Y is not a trophy?? anything less than that is a cull and not a trophy?

[Top Of Texas]

Actually, the original experimental AR in 7 counties of the post oaks and coastal prairies was targeted at improving fawn survival. You say - "DO WHAT?" Yep, that's what started it, and you could safely claim that's what originally justified it. You see, there was much of that country that offered quality habitat, but deer numbers never seemed to increase despite no open doe season. Around 85% of harvest was 2 yr old or less, which results in heavily skewed sex ratios, which results in widely spread breeding, which results in widely spread fawning, which results in greater fawn loss to predators. Thereby, implementing a restriction to increase bucks in the herd tightens sex ratios, resulting in synchronization of fawning which limits predator success, and increasing the percentage of fawns being recruited into the herd.

At least, that was the original "spin".

Of course, this resulted in a tremendous increase in age structure resulting in increased antler size. As other counties of relatively small properties and high hunter density saw that improvement, it naturally spread, via hunter demand, because most hunters want to see and kill larger bucks. If you want to bow hunt, and kill deer for meat, shoot a doe. Not in a county with open doe? Call your local TPWD Biologist about permits, it's about to get really easy to get MLDP doe permits in 2017.

As for AR resulting in population of narrow racked bucks, scientifically speaking, it wont happen. The article M16 referred to shows evidence as to why this is true.

[Txbownut]

Bigger deer = more money. Like it or not, everything comes back to the almighty $. I think AR have grown more than just antlers. Not necessarily a bad thing. I know there are a lot of people that think it's entirely too expensive to hunt nowadays, but if you work for any of the businesses affected by sportsmen spending their money, then you have benefitted from it.

[tvc184]

Why do you have to kill a "Trophy" to have fun and enjoy your efforts of food plots, feeders, and managing your land and wildlife?? Remember, a trophy in one man's eye, might not be the same in another's. There's guys on here that pass up 150's all day long, because they can. Does that mean that a minimum P & Y is not a trophy?? anything less than that is a cull and not a trophy?

Who said that I have to kill a trophy? The largest buck that I have ever killed might have been in the 128" range and haven't killed anything but does in the last 3 years.

You and others have mentioned P&Y and trophy like the state is trying to make trophy hunting the only thing out there. I only wanted to point out that 13" is a legal deer in AR counties and that is hardly a trophy. The only intent is to let buck gets to more than a year old.

They do the same thing with game fish. You have to release non-mature fish by size. They need to get to a mature breeding age to help the fishery. The only difference is that you normally don't see the size of the fish until it is brought in and most survive when returned to the water. Shooting a deer to see if he is mature doesn't work so well for the deer survival.

[crawdaddct]

Too many for my acreage and I know that. The point is, only 1 LEGAL buck gets harvested every 3-4 years, while bunches of forkys, sixes and small 8's run around.

I was hunting a 1800 acre pine thicket in East Texas before jumping down South. Paid about the same, a little more in South Texas. Out of everyone, we killed around 3 mature deer a year. 80% of the hunters never saw a legal deer. Luckily there were plenty of hogs to fill the freezer. My main goal was just to get my doe before thanksgiving and hope for a spike. Its hard hunting in East Texas on open range or public land. You spend a lot more time in the woods, without seeing anything. Even before the AR you were lucky to see a deer. Its hard to pass on a young buck, because you know you'll never see him again. I tried for years to feed and let some young bucks mature around my spot. As soon as they hit 3 1/2, they were gone or if poachers were around, they would not even make it to next year. Just too much pressure for the amount of deer.

[Ironman]

Who said that I have to kill a trophy? The largest buck that I have ever killed might have been in the 128" range and haven't killed anything but does in the last 3 years.

You and others have mentioned P&Y and trophy like the state is trying to make trophy hunting the only thing out there. I only wanted to point out that 13" is a legal deer in AR counties and that is hardly a trophy. The only intent is to let buck gets to more than a year old.

They do the same thing with game fish. You have to release non-mature fish by size. They need to get to a mature breeding age to help the fishery. The only difference is that you normally don't see the size of the fish until it is brought in and most survive when returned to the water. Shooting a deer to see if he is mature doesn't work so well for the deer survival.

Being logical doesn't always work on the green screen. You have been warned.