FOC does it matter

[enewman]

I think the problem on that shot is the range they were shooting. As near as I can tell the time of flight on that arrow is 1.08 seconds. Just roughing some numbers out he was pushing 90yds. No one should expect to get good penetration on an elk shoulder at 30yds, much less 90.

I have no doubt that there are ways to increase the efficiency of our our bows but I personally feel its just dabbling in the details. Not knocking folks for playing with it but I don't think it's necessary. Kinda like the guys on here tweaking their deer rifle set-ups and worried about what bullets do at 6-700yds or asking about Barnes bullets for whitetail deer. A 100gr .244 Cor-Loct out of a 243 will kill every deer walking in America out to 300yds. It's fun to tinker but it isn't needed.

I don't dabble. But my arrow will go through an elk no problems. No I have not hunted elk. But I have killed red stag at the diamond c. Yes not as big. But No problem. If killed big hogs no problem. If your arrow at 30 yards will not go through an elk at the location he hit that elk you are shooting the wrong arrow. And broadhead

[enewman]

Here is Easton's info on the subject matter.

http://www.eastonhunting.com/blog/wh...t-arrow-flight

Good read. But it s set up for the average.

If you want to see what foc will do for you go read foc by dr ashby. Don't care about anything else just look at foc. There is years of writings on it. I've seen lots of positives over the last few years with my set up and several others

Contact muddyfuzzy on here. He has countless of people that will,tell you what the increase in foc has done for them.

[Landrover]

Here is Easton's info on the subject matter.

http://www.eastonhunting.com/blog/wh...t-arrow-flight

http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/

Go a ways down the opening page for momenteum info and then a FOC chart........all from Dr. Ashby's studies over decades. Ashby is NOT selling anything, but pure unadulterated research.

Good read. But it s set up for the average.

If you want to see what foc will do for you go read foc by dr ashby. Don't care about anything else just look at foc. There is years of writings on it. I've seen lots of positives over the last few years with my set up and several others

Contact muddyfuzzy on here. He has countless of people that will,tell you what the increase in foc has done for them.

U beat me to it.

[muddyfuzzy]

Foc is probably the most abused thing in archery right now. Other then the big 5, lighter weight shooters, the risk versus reward are minuscule.

Don't get you logic. Where is this "risk" you speak of? FOC isn't abused nor is it a cure all for a poor skill set or shot selection. If that is the archer's intention the the boat had been missed all together. I have never had a minuscule recovered kill in my hunting career.


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[muddyfuzzy]

Don't get your logic. Where is this "risk" you speak of? FOC isn't abused nor is it a cure all for a poor skill set or shot selection. If that is the archer's intention the the boat had been missed all together. I have never had a minuscule recovered kill in my hunting career.


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[175gr7.62]

The problem with real world shooting at animals is that no one can tell you that if my arrow/bullet had only been different in "this" regard things would have turned out differently. There are simply too many variables. I'm all for stacking the deck in my favor....but if I have $5M in the bank, how much harder should I work to get $5.1M. Both are plenty for me.

I have shot 8 elk with a bow and have been witness to 9-10 other arrow impacts from different hunters on elk. If you hit a mature bull elk in the shoulder bone you are not going to get much penetration. I've watched a guy from Houston shoot one in the shoulder at 26yrd with a ~625gr arrow out of 80lb PSE X-Force 2-blade 190gr Simmons Interceptor COC head. He got about 8 in of penetration. Arrow stopped so hard it blew the nock out of it.

I also called in a bull for a lady shooting 50lbs with a ~320gr arrow and Thunderhead 85's. She got a complete pass through at 30yds.....I mean arrow laying on the ground on the other side pass through. She didn't hit the shoulder.

Her FOC didn't matter cause she hit him in the right spot....His FOC didn't matter because he didn't hit him the right spot.

[enewman]

175gr7.62

You have showed why this is very hard to show and teach.
What arrow works and what dosent.

I can say there is studies out there that are 30 years with of testing. Not on North America game but big game in Africa. They know what arrow is needed to break that bone 100% of the time. But very few ever build that arrow.

Now let's look at the two great examples you have given. A lady shot and killed a elk with a 320 gn arrow. How because she didn't hit any big bone. She made the good shot. We know if she had not got that perfect shot. She would have had very little penetration.

Then you had a guy using a 625 gn arrow. He made a bad shot. Or not really. He did not have the correct arrow to break bone to get that arrow into the vitals.

So what makes that arrow.

First that complete arrow from tip to nock has to have a very high structural integrity. Any of this is off it won't work. Second tuning. This arrow has to be tuned to great flight. Third is foc. You have to have enough to do the job. Already seen all the charts to show what happens. Fourth broadhead mechanical advantage. This is the top four.

Any one of these that are not good the arrow will fail.

There are other factores for this arrow. There's 12 total. Arrow weight is six. You have types of heads tip design etc.

So. All the 30 years of testing shows. That a 650 gn arrow with minimum 19% foc. Will break bone. But there are several other fractures. The broadhead has to be a 3.0 mechanical advantage head. Not many on the market. It also has to be a single bevel. Lastly. The momentum has to be .57 minimum. If any one of them are not there the arrow will not do its job. Break bone.

Now the 625 gn arrow is shy of 650. I do not believe that is what happen. Wth the bow you listed he shot with I'm sure the momentum was above the .57. So what happen. First. Shooting a 80 lb bow requires a stiff spine. So his arrow was prolly heavy on the gpi. So that puts foc below the 19%. I'm still thinking that was still not the main factor. So what's left. The broadhead. I've shot sharks. They are good heads. They are not a bone breaking head. The mechanical advantage is not there. There a thin blade. All that arrow was good for was a shot placement where the 320gn arrow went.

People just think if I shoot heavy it will work. That is the farthest from the truth. As you just showed.

Eric

[critter69]

All I know is that I was shooting completely through deer and hogs wwaaayyyy before I ever heard of FOC.. Like "losing a arrow" through.. I just keep it simple heavy, poundage and arrow.

If that's a normal thing, I would say you might want bigger blades, bigger holes more blood, shorter tracking jobs, animal passes much quicker, thus better tasting due to not as much adrenalin pumping through them. Don't waste it, use it to your advantage. Less lost arrows also.

[tradslam]

I should of been more clear on my statement I guess, on this being abused.

Just reading this thread, it kinda confirms it. Everyone goes crazy over foc, but just tossing weight on the tip isn't enough. If you toss 300 grains up front, and you arrow turns into a noodle your not gaining anything other then a slow setup.

I guess my point is keeping things balanced and having everything matched to your gear.

Elk are big critters and yes a shoulder hit isn't going to do much regardless of gear. I'm talking bone not the shoulder muscle.

Some of the comparisons to african game is kinda crazy, an elk isn't a cape buffalo let alone a deer. I'm running around 425 grains total arrow weight for elk on down. I'm also running a rage hypo upfront. This rig from my testing is what I need in a setup, fast enough to be off a few yards on an animal walking after being ranged and has no problem punching to the off side of an elk even at longer yardages. And the most important part is it flat out shoots, if I can shoot a 300 round with a hunting rig thats about as good as it gets.

Anyone have some pics of these heavy logs, really saving them an animal?

Also toss up some arrow info for the guys that want to have a bone busting arrow.

[tradslam]

"Yes sir. But I have to disagree. There is a great reward. A recovers animal.

But thank you for your Imput."

The other half to this a gut hit, would you rather hit them with a narrow inch wide 2 blade or a 2inch plus mechanical?

[enewman]

I should of been more clear on my statement I guess, on this being abused.

Just reading this thread, it kinda confirms it. Everyone goes crazy over foc, but just tossing weight on the tip isn't enough. If you toss 300 grains up front, and you arrow turns into a noodle your not gaining anything other then a slow setup.

I guess my point is keeping things balanced and having everything matched to your gear.

Elk are big critters and yes a shoulder hit isn't going to do much regardless of gear. I'm talking bone not the shoulder muscle.

Some of the comparisons to african game is kinda crazy, an elk isn't a cape buffalo let alone a deer. I'm running around 425 grains total arrow weight for elk on down. I'm also running a rage hypo upfront. This rig from my testing is what I need in a setup, fast enough to be off a few yards on an animal walking after being ranged and has no problem punching to the off side of an elk even at longer yardages. And the most important part is it flat out shoots, if I can shoot a 300 round with a hunting rig thats about as good as it gets.

Anyone have some pics of these heavy logs, really saving them an animal?

Also toss up some arrow info for the guys that want to have a bone busting arrow.

At this time I'm still looking at the arrow I'm building. First one I'm testing is a blackeagle carnivor 300 spine 24.5 ctc. With 300 gn up front. It's weight is around 550. Foc around 28 to 30. This arrow may be just at the underspin. Point. .

So I'm looking at using a 250 spine same length but adding a 50 gn insert. This arrow we'll be around 611. ?on foc

Your comment on the 425 gn arrow killing elk. Like I have posted above this is always there. This is why it's hard for some people to understand. What I'm posting about or why we even need it. It's all in the amount of risk you want to take or not take when hunting

Eric

[enewman]

"Yes sir. But I have to disagree. There is a great reward. A recovers animal.

But thank you for your Imput."

The other half to this a gut hit, would you rather hit them with a narrow inch wide 2 blade or a 2inch plus mechanical?

again this is one of them what if questions that really can't answer. No matter how I answer it can be twisted.

so let's look at the two. I build my arrow. Good shot I'm good bad shot shoulder I'm good. Bad shot gut I've still cut him.

Your mech head. Good shot your good. Bad shot shoulder your stoped. Bad shot gut your good. So I'm 3 for 3. Your 2 for 3.

Just a fine line there

Eric

[tradslam]

Have you got through an elk shoulder, you might convert me if I can see some pics. Not trying twist words, it's about a month til elk season and Flyfishing only gets me so far before I have to comment on one of these threads lol ��

[enewman]

Have you got through an elk shoulder, you might convert me if I can see some pics. Not trying twist words, it's about a month til elk season and Flyfishing only gets me so far before I have to comment on one of these threads lol ��

I can't. Biggest animal I've shot was a young stag at diamond C. I shot him straight up the leg. Shot him with a 175 gn Zwickey with the bleeders. Bent both bleeders but complete pass thru.


Problem with giving this kind of info. We have to go off of a lot of studies. The proof is all there. Dr ashby has shown this. But there are so many people that has killed with out using efoc arrows or heavy arrows. I did. I always shot light and fast. Then about 5 years ago I had an arrow stopped, no penetration on a big buck. That's when I went to doing research found dr ashby writings and never looked back.

Some people will just except and change. Some will never and just except if they loose a deer that it's just part of hunting. Some like me change because things happened and don't want it to happen again.

Is it a 100%. No. Friend of mine shot a nice buck few years ago. Just as he shot buck tuned into him. Arrow went in in front of leg and came out his back leg. So arrow went completly through that dear length wise. We never recovered.


Eric

[troubldstranger]

Have you got through an elk shoulder, you might convert me if I can see some pics. Not trying twist words, it's about a month til elk season and Flyfishing only gets me so far before I have to comment on one of these threads lol ��

I have not yet either, but those at Alaska Bowhunting/ Grizzlystick put these videos together. Care to put your setup to this sort of test?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqMbO3dJ5YQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_js9YzQfyU

They preach this sort of system and use Ashby's research to back up their testing. Is it overkill? Maybe, especially for deer. I think about it this way, I could kill a deer with a .22 lr and just the right shot, but I bring alot bigger round than that for when the shot isn't just right.