Knife Values or Lack There Of!!!

[chopsknives]

Hey Thanx Yall!! for the VERY kind words!!!

Let me throw this out, just for the sake a discussion. How do you know it's Alabama Damascus vs. Syrian Damascus? And, where did the steel originate prior to the blending in Alabama? In other words, where does steel originate, and is steel in non-US locations still steel, or is it a non-steel? Deep questions.

And in my knives, is it New Jersey steel, or is it other? Wow, maybe Pennsylvania steel?

Good question here! You know back in the day aquiring good steel for knives was different - Randall always used Studebaker leaf springs. This way once he figured out the bast way to heat treat it then as long as they were the same he had it and Studebakers were in every junk yard! There were also makers that used engine blocks as they were good carbon steel! The problem is in using slag metal in which the composition changes and is not a good carbon steel source to begin with. Nowadays if you have a mystery metal like sawmill blades you can send it to Peter's Heat treat and they will tell you the exact composition of the steel with a handheld spectrometer - they get a digital readout in seconds!! At $30,000 I don't see me getting one in the near future! LOL!! I wouldn't worry about the Steel Baron's steel or any other reputable supplier in THIS country! There again the consumer is relying on the Maker to know and only buy from reputable sources!! Even with good steel the heat treating process determines the amount of retained Austenite and the formation of Pearlite and other Edge killing formations!!!

[bladesmith]

Chops,
You bring up a good point. I have been making knives for thirty years, making and forging my own Damascus for 20 years so I feel I have some credibility in this subject. The huge rise of cheap imported knives made with cheap Damascus has affected the custom knife world and buyers have to be educated and research before they buy.

If you see a loaded out Damascus knife that's cheap then of course its from over seas. But I also see this time and time again folks buy a premade Damascus blank from any of the knife supply catalogs and stick handles on it and sell it for big money and call it there own. That's fine if the maker tells the customer he purchased the premade blade. Ive been to some small shows and called guys out on some very high priced knives they were passing off as customs they have hand made and they were knives from Jantz supply.

Buyer beware and research the maker before you buy. Do they have a website. Do they belong to any of the knife making organizations that Chops mentioned in his post. Do they have testimonials about there knives and so on.

Also new makers, mark your knives and sheaths with your maker mark.

Chops you make some awesome knives, I have not had the pleasure to meet you in person but hope to in the future. Keep up the great work

If anyone has a question about knives or knife making please feel free to contact me and I will be glad to help you out.

Richard Epting
ABS Journeyman Smith

[Bily Lovec]

great post

[White Falcon]

This------

Great read. People don't understand what goes into custom, handcrafted work whether it's knives, woodwork or leatherwork.

[locknload]

You still taking orders Chops? I really liked that blue folder...

[justintyme8303]

So question where does the value of one of your custom knives come from? Please give us a break down on how you price your knives.

[bphillips]

So question where does the value of one of your custom knives come from? Please give us a break down on how you price your knives.

Like the folder he had posted I believe he said was $400+ just in materials and around a week of labor.

[justintyme8303]

Like the folder he had posted I believe he said was $400+ just in materials and around a week of labor.

Ok if you and I are speaking for the same knife it was stated $1950.00 of which the way I read it a week of labor ( 1550 ? ) and 400 in materials.

What all was involve in the weeks labor? Are we talking 40 hours?

Id like Chops to answer since only he knows the answer to this.

[Artos]

I'm trying to understand your angle...it's just coming across that you are trying to bait that the labor isn't worth the price??

Tim can reply however he feels fit, but if his knives are selling for the asking price, why would one need to justify the labor charged & why do you care if you aren't a player??

Again, I'm trying to grasp what you are looking for...I can look at his knives and understand the pricing is based on the material & detail they have put into them...I'm either going to buy it or pass on it. I don't need anyone Chops, Stic, etc to explain publicly as it comes across as calling out as gouging??

Sorry if that is not the intent...just seems that is what you are doing here Justin??

[justintyme8303]

I'm trying to understand your angle...it's just coming across that you are trying to bait that the labor isn't worth the price??

Tim can reply however he feels fit, but if his knives are selling for the asking price, why would one need to justify the labor charged & why do you care if you aren't a player??

Again, I'm trying to grasp what you are looking for...I can look at his knives and understand the pricing is based on the material & detail they have put into them...I'm either going to buy it or pass on it. I don't need anyone Chops, Stic, etc to explain publicly as it comes across as calling out as gouging??

Sorry if that is not the intent...just seems that is what you are doing here Justin??

Buy all means NO just the opposite. I too look at the materials and detail that went in to making a knife. In the case of the folder that bphillips brought up the labor is about 75% of the asking price. Anyone can see all the detail and guess that took some time to do. Chops values his time and skilled labor and the price per hour reflects that. But regardless if he was charging less per hour that still could not take away from time and skill/crafting that had to happen to make the knife look as it does. It is truly a work of art that not just anyone could do.


This thread is all about value but all that is being talked about is blades and he is pointing out a type of blade metal that is made all over the world and saying that ONLY the USA sourced metal is grade A quality and all others are crap basically which = low price knife .... So is he saying he thinks thats where all the value comes from? His personal knife pricing begs to differ blade material/source is not the only thing to consider ... which it shouldn't be. Too much time and skill goes in to the finished product.

So Im trying to find out is where "value" comes from in his opinion? He is after all an expert and buyers come to him for this same answer. I too want to learn since I buy lots of knives. I am also one of the sellers he contacted via PM telling me my knives were crap because of where he assumed the blades were sourced from. Again placing all the value on the blade and not the rest of the knife.

If the knife world was turned upside down tomorrow after the news that his favorite steel supplier was really importing from lets say Pakistan or China would the folder we talked so highly about about now be worth 60.00? I think not nor should it be .... but I could be wrong others might just see it as a polished tuuurd if that happened. Would they say to heck with all the grinding, polishing and filing he did that week its worth nothing now.

So I hope that clears up why Im asking where does the true value come from?

[justintyme8303]

Oh and for the record I was not wanting him to justify any specific pricing on any of his knives past or present. Someone else answered for him with the folder example so that is what we went with.

I was/am looking for a hypothetical break down of how I should value a knife Im looking to buy.

We all know any item is only worth what one is willing to pay regardless of asking price.

If I give a chunk of D2 steel to two different makers and say make me a $500 knife. Ill get two different knives.

[Avezorak]

Another question. What is the benefit of forging your own damascus if it can be purchased from a reputable vendor? I know that a LOT of work goes into folding and forging.


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[Hookem84]

A lot of good info in here.

[CWendling]

Another question. What is the benefit of forging your own damascus if it can be purchased from a reputable vendor? I know that a LOT of work goes into folding and forging.

The benefit is strictly in the pride of the maker who makes it and his skill at doing so. Its kind of an intangible value that is set by the buyer. Is a knife ground out from a bar of bought stock and heat treated correctly worth the same to a collector as a blade that was made by a maker that forged his own Damascus? Probably not, but maybe.

I started stock removal years ago, now I forge all my blades. Does that make them better? Some collectors believe so because forging is a skill different than just grinding. I dont believe it makes them better, but i have become a better maker by learning to forge. In the end, a well made blade is a well made blade and the value is based on what someone will pay based on your reputation for quality

[chopsknives]

OK Justintyme If you had read what I posted here you would already have your answer. The fact that Chinese and Pakistani knives are crap metal has been known for quite sometime. The fact that the knives you are selling are on ebay for less than half of what your asking is also a commonly known fact. The fact that they call their steel something it is not is also a common denominator. As I told you I have a friend who has a Spectrometer and would gladly have him tell you what your knives are or are not. I believe you told me firstly can anyone know what metal really is anymore? The answer is yes in this country and several others there are standards. You also told me you don't care that I could test them after I purchase them. The fact that you don't care is the problem here.
I'll give you a good example that might help you to understand: Lets look at Chinese knives. you can get em for under $10 everywhere. Now just off their coast is Japan and blade steel from Seki City Japan is sold at the top tier. Knives made from this steel are respected by collectors worldwide and actually enhance the value of knives made from them
To coin your phrase you can't polish a **** - you can put all the blood sweat and tears into making a knife with Chinese steel and it will still have zero collectable value.