Once saved-always saved vs Apostasy

[Shane]

Well, if God's word says it, then it has to be true. While I certainly don't believe God drags anyone to heaven kicking and screaming... I do believe that predestination and choice are somehow tied together in a way that I will never understand this side of heaven.

I just try realize that whatever theological construct I find myself in, that the pharisees themselves thought they were 100% correct. So correct as to when Jesus came along, since they were right, then Christ couldn't be. So I keep an open mind to whatever issue I run into, because I am fallible, and could be wrong on everything. Luckily however, God is omniscient, and his word is inerrant.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I do know, that from the time I personally went and lived as the world did... that I always had a nagging from the Holy Spirit that what I was doing was wrong. Its just that I let sin become so ingrained within me, that it deadened that voice to the point that I didn't care. It wasn't that God ever gave up on me, I always knew he was there... its just that I kept on running, until the point that I ran out of road. All my own plans had failed. Funny how God works...

EXCELLENT post.

Shane,
Let me ask you this, and I'm pretty sure I know how you're gonna answer but I'm gonna ask anyways. Knowing Christ the way you do today and the way you feel about The Lord, is there any way you could walk away from Him? Now, I'm gonna be presumptuous and say "no", primarily by the many thoughtful and loving posts I've seen you post through the years. That being said, it leads me back to John 10:27-28 that was posted earlier. Now I'm not gonna get into a huge diatribe over predestination but I will say this, if you truly hear His voice, which I'm sure you have, could you walk away? You and I both know that once we've heard that voice, there's NO WAY either one of us can walk away. Not a chance. The only question left to be asked then is, has someone truly heard the call of The Lord. If not, they're gonna stumble their way through the hobby of church, talk about God, feel "fairly" sure about themselves and their eternal destination but the odds are, and I can't judge a man's soul, that they're prolly not heaven bound. Odds are they're gonna hear Jesus quote himself from Matthew 7:23. Now I've been around here long enough and seen enough if your posts to know that I'm not gonna change your mind, and I won't try, but maybe I can provide another perspective. The perspective of "the chosen" or "the called".

I've been down both roads and when I read The Word and interpret scripture with scripture, I deduce that there is NO way to lose ones salvation. The only question is whether one was truly saved or not. We will always be "working out our salvation" , otherwise known as the sanctification process but that has nothing to do with our justification.
Take for example, Hebrews 6:1-12, it seems in the first 8 verses that he is making it sound that they could lose their salvations but rather once you hit verse 9, he says "Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation." Which shows that those he previously spoke of were not saved in the first place because they obviously didn't "belong to salvation".


And to whoever asked previously about how God feels about you turning your back on Him and going wild and whether or not he'll take you back, just look at the story of the prodigal son. Or another example is the story of the prophet Hosea and his harlot wife Gomer. It's a mirrored image of how God is with Israel and also how He is with us. Check it out.

I think that the relationship between predestination and free will is probably something that we can't fully understand. I know I don't. I'm more and more convinced that you and I are talking about the same thing, just in different ways. I can't imagine ever turning my back on God, but I've seen people - some of my own friends and family members - who had what everyone around them would think was a very strong faith and love for God and then, later, they did a complete 180 and turned their back on God. You might say that they must not have been truly saved in the first place, and I would say that they were at first, but they chose to reject God and fell from grace. Neither you nor I can ever know what is or was in someone else's heart. Only that person and God can know the truth of that relationship. We, as spectators, can only speculate and try to find a way to explain what we see from the outside.

We both cite scriptures - often the very same ones - to explain and support our ideas. And even when I have a different idea and opinion of what a scripture means, I can still see how you would come to the conclusion that you came to after reading the same scripture. I imagine that the truth is bigger than my understanding and your understanding, and it probably encompasses both schools of thought somehow. Some things in the Bible are much more specific and defined. Other things are harder to fully understand. I think this is one of those times.

When we get to Heaven, we can ask God to explain it to us. I'm sure we'll be able to understand then. But I'll still be happy, even if I don't grasp it fully. I'll be in Heaven, afterall.

[AZ&F'sDaddy]

You'll notice that alternative understandings are offered for each of the various passages used in this thread. But classic Calvinism isn't based upon a few verses here-and-there. Calvinism is based upon a particular construal of atonement, making OSAS not an isolated issue but something that is tied to (Calvinistic notions of) predestination, irresistible grace, etc.

Ironically (and tellingly, I believe), the issue of OSAS has only been around for the past 400 years (give-or-take). Prior to that, the controversy over a passage like Hebrews 6 was whether or not the "fallen" could be received back into fellowship at all.

We don't "trump" one verse with another verse. All of this (OSAS and the "relevant verses") can only be settled by the bigger picture of what God is like.

[AZ&F'sDaddy]

We don't "trump" one verse with another verse. All of this (OSAS and the "relevant verses") can only be settled by the bigger picture of what God is like.

It has been said that one can't accept one (of the five) points of Calvinism without accepting all of them. One aspect of Calvinism says that God has created millions (billions?) of people for no other reason than to eternally, consciously torture them in "Hell" whether those people wanted to have a relationship with him or not. This is said to "bring glory" to God. This, it is said, is what God is like. That is what Calvinism says.

Like it or not, OSAS is tied directly to this other point of Calvinism. I am not the one saying this. This is what Calvin himself (and other modern Calvinists like Piper) insist.

[BowVista]

It has been said that one can't accept one (of the five) points of Calvinism without accepting all of them. One aspect of Calvinism says that God has created millions (billions?) of people for no other reason than to eternally, consciously torture them in "Hell" whether those people wanted to have a relationship with him or not. This is said to "bring glory" to God. This, it is said, is what God is like. That is what Calvinism says.

Like it or not, OSAS is tied directly to this other point of Calvinism. I am not the one saying this. This is what Calvin himself (and other modern Calvinists like Piper) insist.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm a 4 point Calvanist....), but did Calvin ever teach that those predestined for Hell would ever at any point in their life actually WANT a relationship with Christ?

[TXBlkCld]

Judas is an interesting case. I personally believe that he could be in Heaven, but that is probably a topic for a different thread

Not so much. Otherwise why did Jesus tell him it'd better for him to have never been born.

[Mark44]

good read here:

http://www.gospelway.com/salvation/eternal_security.php

[AZ&F'sDaddy]

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm a 4 point Calvanist....), but did Calvin ever teach that those predestined for Hell would ever at any point in their life actually WANT a relationship with Christ?

Would that matter? According to Calvin, God has decreed that they cannot have a relationship with him. He created them as they are and then he will punish them for being precisely what he created them to be. According to Calvin, it has nothing to do with what these people deserve. It is nothing more than what God chose in his sovereignty.

BTW, I am pleased that you are a four point Calvinist. That means you're headed in the right direction. (Though, again, it has been said that one can't accept one without accepting all five.) We must think good things about God.

[stebojay]

There is nothing we can do to be good enough to go to heaven. We were born with a sin nature and we all have chosen to sin. "For all have sinned and fell short of the glory of God". Since we all have sinned then God had to send Jesus to live a perfect life and die for our sins on the cross. John 14:6 says I am the way the truth and the life, NO man comes to the father except through Me. There is one way to heaven and that is Christ. I know that the discussion is "once saved always saved" so the bible says that if we call upon the name of the Lord then we shall be saved. So if we have called upon His name and accepted Christ as our Savior then we are saved. There is no place in the bible that says you can lose that salvation. The bible says "therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" It states it plainly that we are not condemmed. God is constant, never changing. We however are alsways going to fail Him. It is hard for us to understand because we are human and can not comprehend how great Gods Grace is. This is a debate that has been around a long time and people make good points about it but you have to look at the bible and see that there is no reference that would indicate we can lose our salvation. Jesus taught us by his parables, he told many stories. He tells us of the rich man and lazarus and said that the rich man was in a place of torment. This tells us of Hell. Some people dont believe in hell and say that Jesus was just telling a story. Jesus was telling a story but He was a man who lived a perfect life and never lied of mislead anyone. His story is not one that is talking about a place that does not exist, its a story of a real place called Hell. This story also talks about Heaven. This story also named Lazarus as the one in Heaven, another indication that its a real situation. The rich man had choices and so did Lazarus and the both died and got their reward or in the rich man's case punishment. This is a debate within itself to some people but the point is this, there is a Heaven and there is a hell and we have a choice to make to accept Christ and have no condemnation or the choice to deny Him and face condemnation.

[Split Arrow]

Not so much. Otherwise why did Jesus tell him it'd better for him to have never been born.

Did Judas repent?

Did Judas do God's will?

It's really impossible for me to be certain either way. Like I said before, there's a good chance he's in heaven, like it or not.

[BowVista]

Would that matter? According to Calvin, God has decreed that they cannot have a relationship with him. He created them as they are and then he will punish them for being precisely what he created them to be. According to Calvin, it has nothing to do with what these people deserve. It is nothing more than what God chose in his sovereignty.

BTW, I am pleased that you are a four point Calvinist. That means you're headed in the right direction. (Though, again, it has been said that one can't accept one without accepting all five.) We must think good things about God.

Honestly, it does matter quite a bit to me. Asserting that God created people who would desire him and be denied, is different than saying he created some for wrath. The creation of some for destruction doesn't destroy my view of God's character. The creation of people who would truly LONG for Him, yet only understand wrath, speaks differently to me.

You know what's funny to me. Calvin was just a dude. Just like you and me. He was a smart dude, but just a dude. My "subscription" to what he said, doesn't really matter in the long run. I can subscribe to whatever part of what a man says, and exclude whatever part I want. I prefer to place my complete trust in what Jesus said. I'll talk ALL that for sure.

At the risk of feeling the same dislike that you have for Calvin, I'll admit I'm probably closer to a 4.5 point Calvinist. I get what he taught/believed on the "L", I just don't like it. I generally find that people distaste for Calvin far outweighs my taste for him, so I just leave the TULIP discussions alone as much as possible.

[Shane]

Why would Jesus have said this (the Great Commission) if all people didn't have free will to accept or reject Him?....

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

I suspect Calvin would say that there are members of the elect among all nations, so the Gospel needs to be preached there so that they can answer the call. But if they are predestined to be saved by God no matter what, then why is that even necessary?

Just one example of why I can't seem to buy into Calvin's version of these things. But that's just my opinion based on my own limited understanding. As Will said, Calvin was just a dude. So am I.


In a way, this is very similar to a discussion about which came first - the chicken or the egg. It's not a bad discussion necessarily, even though it probably doesn't matter that much. The danger, however, is when somebody says something like, "The egg obviously came first, and anybody that thinks otherwise is going to hell just for being so stupid."

I take comfort in knowing that, whether I was predestined to follow Jesus or if I choose to follow Jesus, I'm still following Jesus as best I can. He's my Lord, and thanks to God's merciful grace I'll spend eternity with Him in Heaven someday. That's truly all that matters to me. And if my room is right next to John Calvin's room, I'm cool.

[BowVista]

I take comfort in knowing that, whether I was predestined to follow Jesus or if I choose to follow Jesus, I'm still following Jesus as best I can. He's my Lord, and thanks to God's merciful grace I'll spend eternity with Him in Heaven someday. That's truly all that matters to me. And if my room is right next to John Calvin's room, I'm cool.

I'm 100% on board with that.

A preacher dude I really like talks about having an open handed theology, and a closed handed theology. Some things we can disagree on, and be just fine. Some things are non negotiable. Limited atonement/predestination is NOT in my closed hand. Total depravity, that's clenched tight in my closed fist. I was totally depraved, then saved. It's not about change, it's about EXchange. I gave Him my life, He gave me His.

Oh...and God doesn't make impulse buys and then stand in the Customer Service line to make a return when I screw up. He bought me, and He keeps me, because it's not ultimately about what I do, it's about what He DID!

[Death from Above]

There is no true salvation without true repentance. What does it mean in the eyes of God to truly repent?

Answer that question and you answer the OP's question.

God's view of disobedience(sin) all throughout scripture...dig deep.

[mitchbcs]

Taking a little break from the office to exercise my body... Thought about this thread and exercising my faith daily!
Quote of the day:



Not far enough into my walk with The Lord to be quoting from the Bible however I do feel like "I get it" and encourage others like myself to post your thoughts even if you can't quote the Bible... There are signs everywhere in your day to day life that often times jump out at you... Kinda like the pic I posted.

[Kirby86]

I thought about this thread quite a bit today. Maybe it is because I am bored in my classes, and maybe it is because I should spend less time on the green screen and more time studying. As you may have guessed from a few of my other posts, I am in fact Southern Baptist. I am currently attending Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. So to come across this issue... well, it has hit a nerve that I have been dealing with for quite some time. I have wrestled with both of these issues quite a bit, especially regarding the suicide of my late uncle. There are many who will tell me that he is in Hell. Well, be it the case or not, I have tried to post something as to the conclusion that I myself have reached, and I hope that this can be helpful to others that are listening in on this conversation. All of the links are either to Bible gateway or Bible CC.

The debates and questions that have been brought up in this thread will most likely never be answered. But in debating people on both sides of Calvinism, and Armenianism, this is the place that I myself have come to. While much of what I am debating involves Calvinism, I did try to close at the end with my stance against Armenianism. I will say that neither of these stances need to split a church. They are not a hill upon which we are to die on, in my own personal opinion.


So to begin, my question arose, as to whether Calvinism itself is contradictory to the character of God himself. This is the same God that rose up the nation of Israel, and sent them to destroy all those nations within the land of Canaan. They were a "human flood" if you will, rather than God using water. I often wrestled with how God could call for the eradication of all these people, but keep in mind, these people were worshipping the fire god Molech, which involves burning your children alive inside of a great bronze bull. These so called gods were not gods at all, but as we see, they were in fact demons. So the question arises. If God created these people, why do so? They lived out their lives, served other gods, and eventually were slaughtered by the Israelites (well not all of them because Israel wasn't obedient, but you get the point)

So why would God create them? Did he not love them too? In Isaiah 43, we see that God is in the business of bringing glory to himself for his own namesake. So... God created these people for destruction in order to bring glory to his own name? Hmmm. Paul, in Romans 9 makes the point that some vessels of the potter are devoted to destruction. But what potter makes a pot, places it on a shelf only to turn around and smash it? So if these people were to die, then from a scriptural standpoint, the only logical place that we can place these people is Hell. My problem with that however, is how do you explain

Matthew 25:41

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Hell itself was created for the devil and his angels, not man itself. Ah, but when was Hell itself created? When the heavens were created? Was it created at the fall of Satan? Regardless, it was not the intended place for mankind. If I am wrong on this, and taking this verse out of context then please correct me, but it seems to be within this frame, considering the parable of the sheep and the goats is talking about salvation. In any case, Hell is the place in which the people killed by the Israelites are placed. If God created man, intending that they would go to Hell, then Hell itself would have been prepared for Man, the Devil and his angels.

This also brings up the one question for which I have never found an answer from a Calvinist, and it is, why create Satan? If angels and man alike are unable to choose their destiny, then God himself becomes the author of sin, and caused Satan to fall. This, most certainly does not seem to be characteristic of God. But something that God created within Satan, some ability to choose, caused him to look at God's throne and somehow decide that he should be the one sitting on it instead of the most high. And so he went on the deceive Adam and Eve, and thus began the fall, and the current state of affairs that Christ himself has/is redeeming us from, Amen!

Because of this, for some reason, I can't quite seem to stop wrestling with Calvinism. There are too many verses like John 3:16, Revelation 3:20, and 2 Peter 3:9 for this to be... yet I cannot dispute Romans 9 and Ephesians 1:4 among others. So what does this leave me with? I came up with this example...

Think of it this way. Since God himself is a judge, what does he call the Pharisees out on, time after time? Holding to their own personal righteousness, unbelief regarding him, and blindedness. So were the Pharisees guilty because God didn't choose them, or because they saw but chose not to believe. I have a hard time picturing a judge in a courtroom calling me in and saying "you are guilty for crimes that your father committed, and you are guilty for something in which I, the judge, could have saved you from. But instead, being the judge, I chose not to save you from this. So for that, you will spend an eternity suffering in Hell for crimes that I, the judge, did not allow you to be saved from."

So what do I see the Pharisees as being guilty of? Not believing in who Jesus was, and for holding on to their own righteousness. And thats part of why Christ was so angry with them in Matthew 23:24 They are guilty because of they denied who Jesus was. A good judge would explain what crime i have committed, and why I have to face punishment, just as Jesus did. And I know that many people will say "well hold on a minute, how do you explain all the other religions who truly believe that they are going to heaven?"

Romans 1:19-20

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Well that explains part of it, and I think that explains a bit about people who have never heard the gospel preached to them. There is also the full extent of

John 3:16-21

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

This speaks of people choosing darkness, because they in fact, love their own darkness. I truly, truly believe all of Romans 9. And I do believe in predestination because the bible says that we are predestined, and because well, I can't save myself from my own sin. I am totally depraved. But I do truly believe that if you had a wicked person knowing what their choices truly are, (this is hypothetical) that if predestination were totally removed from the equation, that that person would still choose to live their life in sin. The Israelites faced this very same dilemma. And yet, I cannot deny the fact that God chose the Israelite people, apart from the rest of the world to show his glory. I think its pretty safe to say that the majority of the world at that time was perishing. So is it unfair to say that God is mean, or angry because he didn't choose some, or that he did others? I think what the entirety of this post is trying to say is that, even with God predestining those who he calls his own, he still had to show evil people why exactly they were guilty. I can't think of any other way to explain it, other than God is God and I am not.


Romans 9:20

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

Like when God answered Job out of the whirlwind... I can only stand here and look at the breadth of his majesty and glory, and thank him for saving me.

In regards to the original poster... Can I lose my salvation? I don't think so. But only because I think that God doesn't break his promises, and he promises
to finish the work he began in us.

Philippians 1:6

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

I urge you to know that you know that you know that you are saved. If you think that you may be not, then I urge you to answer this question before you do anything else in your own life, because it is the most important thing that you will ever do. Salvation isn't a feeling, it isn't a prayer alone, and it isn't me being a good enough guy all the way along. It is knowing that Christ died for me and paid for my sin, evil as I am, and unworthy of his love, that he still died, knowing the darkness that lies in my heart. And that through that he has made me worthy, and that as he says at the end of Matthew 28:20 "lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

I will close with this. If you have made it this far into this wall of text, God bless you for perseverance. If you have not, well then you probably didn't want to comment on this anyways. Feel free to tear it asunder, criticize me, and tell me how you really feel in regards to what I have written here, or even yell at me for not letting an old thread die.

1 John 5:10-13

Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.