Once saved-always saved vs Apostasy

[Kirby86]

So is salvation based upon me choosing God, or is it based upon the idea that God chose me? How do you define predestination? If you take Romans 8:29-30 for example, how do you argue that?

This eventually falls into the argument of Calvinism vs Armenianism, no matter what way you slice it. Free will is free will, but is it that I can choose my salvation, or is it that I have the free will to decide wheat or rye, ketchup or mayo? The truth is we are free to choose our sin. But how do you decide how much sin is enough sin to sin away your salvation?

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

And to point something else out, I don't see how the Parable of the Prodigal son has anything to do with the discussion of eternal security. If you look at the beginning of Luke 15, Jesus is making a point to the hard hearted Pharisees about how much rejoicing there is in heaven regarding a lost person coming to Christ. The Parable of The Lost Coin, and the Parable of the Lost Sheep are in the same manner.

[312InchMagnum]

I think maybe what Split Brow and I are trying to say is different than what you are hearing us say (I know....you're reading, not hearing) . But anyway.... What we are saying isn't in conflict with the free gift of grace, and we're not saying that salvation is dependent upon our works. I completely agree with you that we're saved by God's grace through Jesus' sacrifice, and we could never do enough to earn it or deserve it. It's ours for free if we just receive it. The only thing we're saying that's different than what you are saying is that we believe that, just as we are free to accept God's grace, we are free to reject it too. As long as we don't reject it, God's grace covers all of our sins, and there's nothing we or anyone else can do to take that away. But if we choose to reject God, then He will give us what we choose then just like He gives us what we choose when we choose to make Him Lord of our lives. Free will is what makes our relationships with Him so beautiful and meaningful. It wouldn't mean much if it was a given and we didn't have free will to choose to follow Him or reject Him.

I don't know if what I'm trying to say is coming across well or not. But the way you describe what we are trying to say isn't what I believe. I don't know how to say it any better, and it's OK if you disagree. I agree with riverbowman in that I don't think it's a salvation issue unless somebody somehow twists it into something much more than it is and it affects their relationship with God and/or other Christians in a negative way. You may be correct, and I may be wrong. Or maybe we're both off a little. I'm just sharing my thoughts and beliefs that I've come to based on my limited knowledge and ability to understand.



Actually, David wasn't a Christian. He was a Jew who lived under the Old Law. His sins were rolled forward through the High Priests' sacrifices on the alter until they were ultimately covered by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (as I understand it). But all of that aside, his example fits perfectly with my beliefs. He sinned - and BOY! did he know how to sin. But his heart was 100% dedicated to God, even though he couldn't live perfectly. A Christian today that has the same heart for God as well as the same terrible human flaws and sins would have nothing to worry about regarding his/her salvation, as best I could tell.

Shane, I absolutely see where your coming from. Sometimes it's hard to have a conversation just typing and reading. I do believe your thoughts on accepting vs rejecting regarding salvation and eternal life.

I'm all there with you man. I guess what I was debating was...Can you lose your salvation? I say NO. Once you've truly got it, you got it. And only God knows the intent of your heart. I believe it's much deeper than just repeating a prayer. That's it.

And you got me on David. It was just the first example that popped in my head. Thanks

[Shane]

So is salvation based upon me choosing God, or is it based upon the idea that God chose me? How do you define predestination? If you take Romans 8:29-30 for example, how do you argue that?

This eventually falls into the argument of Calvinism vs Armenianism, no matter what way you slice it. Free will is free will, but is it that I can choose my salvation, or is it that I have the free will to decide wheat or rye, ketchup or mayo? The truth is we are free to choose our sin. But how do you decide how much sin is enough sin to sin away your salvation?

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

And to point something else out, I don't see how the Parable of the Prodigal son has anything to do with the discussion of eternal security. If you look at the beginning of Luke 15, Jesus is making a point to the hard hearted Pharisees about how much rejoicing there is in heaven regarding a lost person coming to Christ. The Parable of The Lost Coin, and the Parable of the Lost Sheep are in the same manner.

We've had a few predestination conversations in the past. My personal understanding and belief on that is that God is certainly all-knowing and all-powerful. He knows in advance who is going to be His and who isn't (I assume). But I think that we are still given free will to choose, and it is still free will even if God knows in advance what choice we are going to make. I think He can and probably does create people for specific purposes sometimes, but I don't think He creates everybody with a pre-programmed eternal existence. He gave Adam and Eve free will in the Garden, and I believe we still have free will today. A decision to love and serve God wouldn't mean anything if we didn't have a choice. It would be empty and hollow. Why would God want that? He wants a real loving relationship with us. He doesn't want mindless and helpless robots that have no choice. At least I assume He doesn't, based on what I gather about the nature of God by reading the Bible. Doesn't mean I'm right, but that's what I believe based on what I read there. I know other people read the same Bible and come away believing in predestination though. I actually don't really care which one of us is right, to tell the truth. I'm saved. It doesn't matter to me if I was predestined to be God's child or if I chose to be His child out of my own free will (which is definitely what I think I did). As long as I'm God's child one way or the other, I really don't care how I got here.

Maybe I should care about that more. I don't know. But I don't really feel the need to have that debate with myself.

Shane, I absolutely see where your coming from. Sometimes it's hard to have a conversation just typing and reading. I do believe your thoughts on accepting vs rejecting regarding salvation and eternal life.

I'm all there with you man. I guess what I was debating was...Can you lose your salvation? I say NO. Once you've truly got it, you got it. And only God knows the intent of your heart. I believe it's much deeper than just repeating a prayer. That's it.

And you got me on David. It was just the first example that popped in my head. Thanks

Yeah, I hear you. I know that we're in about 99.999% agreement. That little .001% difference of opinion can sometimes sound like it's much bigger than it is. But it isn't.

[Walterbones]

I was raised baptist as well so your background is the same as mine. I do not believe salvation can be lost. HOWEVER, I think there is a big misunderstanding about salvation. Salvation is much more than a prayer. Salvation is reaching a point of realizing your own brokenness and crying out to God with a heart that no longer wants to continue in its old ways. I prayed a salvation prayer many times when I was younger and felt nothing change. I wanted salvation but I did not want God and I did not want to turn from my sinful ways. A little at a time, God revealed himself to me and I fell in love. I wanted God even if it meant losing everything else. I then hated my sin. When I glorified God above all else, I was made whole. People can not be scared into salvation. God is mot in the business of giving out get out of jail free cards. He is the Alpha and Omega. He demands all of you because He is worthy of nothing less.

X10 right on brother!!

[Mertzon Man]

Awesome guys! I have enjoyed all comments. I pray that we can grow in Christ learning from one another.

God Bless

[jefandaward]

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Ever heard of Paul Washer?

[312InchMagnum]

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I AGREE, PLAY EMBEDDED VIDEO

Ever heard of Paul Washer?

Haha I posted that video earlier also! Awesome sermon

[Ricky T]

“For it is impossible to restore to repentance those who were once enlightened, those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people to repentance again because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to public shame”

This verse was originally written to the Hebrew Christians who may have been considering a return to Judaism perhaps because of immaturity stemming from a lack of understanding of biblical truths and all believers in Christ. The author(s) go on to say later in the chapter that
“Even though we are talking like this, we really don’t believe that it applies to you.” However, the verse implies that if you continue to “turn away from God” or in other words, reject Christ, you will not be saved.

Hebrews 6:4-6

[Kirby86]

Well, if God's word says it, then it has to be true. While I certainly don't believe God drags anyone to heaven kicking and screaming... I do believe that predestination and choice are somehow tied together in a way that I will never understand this side of heaven.

I just try realize that whatever theological construct I find myself in, that the pharisees themselves thought they were 100% correct. So correct as to when Jesus came along, since they were right, then Christ couldn't be. So I keep an open mind to whatever issue I run into, because I am fallible, and could be wrong on everything. Luckily however, God is omniscient, and his word is inerrant.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I do know, that from the time I personally went and lived as the world did... that I always had a nagging from the Holy Spirit that what I was doing was wrong. Its just that I let sin become so ingrained within me, that it deadened that voice to the point that I didn't care. It wasn't that God ever gave up on me, I always knew he was there... its just that I kept on running, until the point that I ran out of road. All my own plans had failed. Funny how God works...

[Dale]

I do not believe any of us are "Saved" or not. I believe that some of us have chosen to get on the path to "Salvation". Look in The Book for passages that speak of finishing the "race", or the "narrow way",or "straying niether to the left nor the right".

In other words no one is "Saved" until they make it to the other side and hear Jesus say "Well done thou good and faithful servant"

Peter was asked "What must we do to be Saved?" the respones was "Repent and be Baptised in the name of Jesus Christ"

Where in The Book does it say you are "Saved"

[TXBlkCld]

Shane,
Let me ask you this, and I'm pretty sure I know how you're gonna answer but I'm gonna ask anyways. Knowing Christ the way you do today and the way you feel about The Lord, is there any way you could walk away from Him? Now, I'm gonna be presumptuous and say "no", primarily by the many thoughtful and loving posts I've seen you post through the years. That being said, it leads me back to John 10:27-28 that was posted earlier. Now I'm not gonna get into a huge diatribe over predestination but I will say this, if you truly hear His voice, which I'm sure you have, could you walk away? You and I both know that once we've heard that voice, there's NO WAY either one of us can walk away. Not a chance. The only question left to be asked then is, has someone truly heard the call of The Lord. If not, they're gonna stumble their way through the hobby of church, talk about God, feel "fairly" sure about themselves and their eternal destination but the odds are, and I can't judge a man's soul, that they're prolly not heaven bound. Odds are they're gonna hear Jesus quote himself from Matthew 7:23. Now I've been around here long enough and seen enough if your posts to know that I'm not gonna change your mind, and I won't try, but maybe I can provide another perspective. The perspective of "the chosen" or "the called".

I've been down both roads and when I read The Word and interpret scripture with scripture, I deduce that there is NO way to lose ones salvation. The only question is whether one was truly saved or not. We will always be "working out our salvation" , otherwise known as the sanctification process but that has nothing to do with our justification.
Take for example, Hebrews 6:1-12, it seems in the first 8 verses that he is making it sound that they could lose their salvations but rather once you hit verse 9, he says "Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation." Which shows that those he previously spoke of were not saved in the first place because they obviously didn't "belong to salvation".


And to whoever asked previously about how God feels about you turning your back on Him and going wild and whether or not he'll take you back, just look at the story of the prodigal son. Or another example is the story of the prophet Hosea and his harlot wife Gomer. It's a mirrored image of how God is with Israel and also how He is with us. Check it out.

[Split Arrow]

I do not believe any of us are "Saved" or not. I believe that some of us have chosen to get on the path to "Salvation". Look in The Book for passages that speak of finishing the "race", or the "narrow way",or "straying niether to the left nor the right".

In other words no one is "Saved" until they make it to the other side and hear Jesus say "Well done thou good and faithful servant"

Peter was asked "What must we do to be Saved?" the respones was "Repent and be Baptised in the name of Jesus Christ"

Where in The Book does it say you are "Saved"

Romans 10:10
"For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

There are many, many more references to being saved, but for the sake of answering your question briefly, here are a couple of references to people who "are saved" or "have been saved".

Acts 15:11
Romans 8:24
1 Corinthians 1:18
1 Corinthians 15:2
2 Corinthians 2:15
Ephesians 2:5
Ephesians 2:8
2 Timothy 1:9
Titus 3:5
Hebrews 10:39

[dragonsdaddy]

What about King David murdering people and his affair with Bathsheba?...he was a man "after God's own heart"...did he still inherit the kingdom of God?...he was still a Christian, he was just temporarily living for himself/his will not God's...he was a human...

king david was several years ahead of Christianity. and if judas, a disciple, is still saved, i am looking forward to hearing the full story.

[Split Arrow]

king david was several years ahead of Christianity. and if judas, a disciple, is still saved, i am looking forward to hearing the full story.

Judas is an interesting case. I personally believe that he could be in Heaven, but that is probably a topic for a different thread

[312InchMagnum]

i think a HUGE problem that leads to much misunderstanding and confusion is that people will grab a verse or 2 and take them out of context...you have to take each chapter or book or the bible in its entirety as a whole...first, you have to remember the Old Testament was before Jesus...and the entire Bible is full of different literature genres, and was translated from several different languages...some things are literal, some things are not...you cant grab a couple verses and come up with an absolute...im guilty of doing this sometimes by the way...