Once saved-always saved vs Apostasy

[riverbowman]

I'm with Shane based on what I have learned, but I would never limit God's Grace and in the end I hope those of you that feel the other way are right.

I think a healthy fear of God is good for me personally. Just like it is important for a child to have a healthy fear of their father. There's a real reason for that. Having a healthy fear of God doesn't in anyway bring me down or make me miserable.

Why are there so many scriptures that tell us to fear the Lord? Many of them are talking to Christians. There would be no reason at all for me to fear God if I thought there was no way I could ever lose my salvation, assuming I was a "real" christian.

Plus I don't know just how narrow that gate is.

Just my thoughts. I respect everyone elses.

[BowVista]

A pastor friend of mine taught on this back in December. It's a very thought out and well presented layout of what I believe and why I believe it.

It's the 2nd link on this page - "Once Saved, Always Saved? - Inbox Series"

http://www.messiahshouse.org/messages/message_page:2

[TimH]

When you truly accept Christ as your Lord and Savior the Holy Spirit immediately comes into your life and from then on will lead you down the right path if you listen to Him. Read Mark 3:v29 for the one sin that is unforgiveable in God's eye. I interpret the Bible to say that if you believe Christ is the Son of God, came to earth to be the perfect sin sacrifice, died on the cross, was buried and after 3 days rose again then you are His child forever. As we get older and seek God's word, pray, and have a yearning to be more like Jesus each and every day our walk thru faith is pure "joy".

I like this and I'd like to add one thing. To be more like Jesus means to submit to the father daily. This is something he modeled in his own life and so should we.

[Kirby86]

If my salvation was dependent upon me walking a straight line, then I would utterly fail the test. From the beginning of creation, God has been in the business of fashioning a people unto himself. So my salvation is dependent upon him, not upon me or what I will do, have done, or am doing.

Let me put a personal touch to this. Last march, my uncle shot himself. Imagine having to preach that funeral? Well, I did. And I did it with the realization that if he accepted Christ, well, then he is in heaven with him. He prayed a salvation prayer, and his life wasn't radically changed. In fact, it got worse.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

1 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

I think that is very much how I will see my uncle in heaven. I can't guarantee it, because in the end, I only know that I Myself am saved.
You see, salvation is only the beginning of your walk with Jesus. If I could lose my salvation, then how do you explain Romans 8?

Romans 8:29

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Once you are walking with Christ, then we get into the rewards, for each person will be rewarded according to their works on behalf of Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27

"Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore I run... I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified."


2 Corinthians 5:10

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

These are all brief scripture, and points because to cover this extensively would take what would amount to a book. While there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, I do believe that there will be a great amount of shame when I stand before my savior, and have to give an account as to why I chose to be so disobedient in so many areas of my life. Note how Revelation 21:4 says

"He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

Is that saying there will be no tears in heaven? I don't think so. I just think that it means that he will wipe away my shame, just as he wiped away my sin. God is always in the process of redeeming his people from sin, just as he did in the garden with Adam and Eve in the slaughter of the animal for their clothing. Just as he did in regards to the payment for sin in the old testament, and just as he did in regards to Christ being the ultimate payment for sin. God himself is the author of salvation, and Christ's payment was once, for all.

The fact that you are questioning your salvation is never a bad thing. If you were living in such a manner that you are not bearing fruit, then that would cause me to ask if you are truly saved. Christians do horrible things to other people all the time. Does that mean that they are not saved? I don't believe that that is always the case. The fact is that we have a very real enemy in Satan, and when we are saved, we do not become immune to his schemes. Why do you think the divorce rate is just as high in the church as it is outside of it?

[Split_Brow]

Too many people have attended church and just been fed what the pastor/preacher has given them, never actually going to the Bible and reading it, from Mathew 1 to Revelation Amen. God the Father will never deny Salvation to those who seek it and ask for it through accepting his Son as Lord and Savior. But, we, through free will, can sabotage that agreement. In the parable of the Lost Son, the son had gained his Father's inheritance and then squandered it away. The Father was always there, ready to accept his son's return, but it was up to the son to REPENT and return back to the father. Without repenting and RETURNING to the father, salvation would have been lost. There are too many scriptures about falling away, not producing fruit, returning back to wickedness, all from Jesus, all written in red. He would not have kept repeating and warning of these things if salvation could not be lost no matter what. God gave us free will, it is our decision to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, and it is our decision to stay the course, to remain victorious until the end. Salvation covers all sins, none are greater than another, as we saw that in the parable of the debt collector, where one person owed 500 denari and the other just 50 denari but both debts were forgiven equally. But to think that you can not fall away is to be mistaken. People pull up the same two or three verses to prove that once saved always saved. But there are 10 times that amount warning of falling away. God will not take it away from us, just as the father accepted back his lost son, but we as the son have to return to the father. If the son allowed pride to when out, he would have fallen just as the father of all pride, Satan, fell. Free will is a double edged sword.

[riverbowman]

This is a really good thread and I am glad it has not gotten out of hand.

At the end of the day there are very, very few people who are truly "knowledgeable" about the scriptures. That's scary. And what's even scarier is that those folks disagree all the time... and among those are false teachers according to scripture.

So what do we do? Crawl under a rock?

Nope.

We use threads like this to respectfully hear what each other have to say, and hopefully learn something, teach something or reinforce our beliefs.

To me this topic isn't a salvation issue unless it impacts your walk. You could fear losing your salvation to the point you are paralyzed and afraid to do anything. You could also go extreme the other way and get way too relaxed and comfortable. Neither are good things.

[312InchMagnum]

Don't take my question wrong. I'm not attacking you or anything. Just asking.... But how does this help anyone have confidence in their salvation though? I have heard a lot of people with real and heart-wrenching doubts say things along the lines of, "I said the sinner's prayer one time, and I thought I was saved. But now I'm struggling with sin still, and I'm told that if I had truly been saved then I would have been transformed and I wouldn't want to sin anymore. I don't know if I'm saved or not, because I still struggle with sin....."

People can get sidetracked into thinking about only one aspect of salvation and grace, and it can cause them to doubt either way. One worry is the possibility that falling from grace creates uncertainty, but the problem that goes along with the supposed "fix" for that is the worry over the uncertainty that maybe I didn't really mean it at the time and I'm not really saved. And if I think I mean it this time, how can I know for sure that I really do mean it and I really am saying the prayer right, etc....

People have doubts for all kinds of reasons, unfortunately.

no offense taken at all buddy...i appreciate the conversation...it makes me grow...maybe i did come across a little aggressive...sorry if I did...let me try to provide some sort of "human" answer to your following response

" I have heard a lot of people with real and heart-wrenching doubts say things along the lines of, "I said the sinner's prayer one time, and I thought I was saved."
---thats exactly my point, i think alot of people say some human made prayer "one time" and think all of the sudden they are saved, i think a lot of these people "find Jesus" at some critical low point in their lives, and this "sinners prayer" was said on emotion and not true understand and prompting of the Holy Spirit...dont get me wrong, i do believe that there are probably some people at some point in their lives that said a prayer one time and meant it because they were prompted by the Holy Spirit to do so, the understood what they were doing...but i believe their lives and thought processes and moral compass probably looks different than the person that said the "sinners prayer" based on emotion...clear as mud?

"But now I'm struggling with sin still, and I'm told that if I had truly been saved then I would have been transformed and I wouldn't want to sin anymore. I don't know if I'm saved or not, because I still struggle with sin....."

---its obviously human nature for us to sin, struggle with sinning, and be tempted to sin...which all started in the garden...to not know if your saved or not, i question if that person ever truly was saved...sure we are going to sin and struggle with sins, thats satans handy work, but when you are saved, and you have that supernatural change in your heart, i believe you know that you know you have received God's grace, and you are saved...

struggling with sin and being saved is comparing THE APPLE to oranges...

[flyin7]

but what about the multiple year period in my life when i was intoxicated out of my mind more nights than i was sober? I couldnt have cared less about my walk, my sin, loving Christ, etc. Back then, I turned my back on Christ and chose to live my own life. What if Christ would have come back then?

Remember the Parable of the Prodigal Son.

[312InchMagnum]

Too many people have attended church and just been fed what the pastor/preacher has given them, never actually going to the Bible and reading it, from Mathew 1 to Revelation Amen. God the Father will never deny Salvation to those who seek it and ask for it through accepting his Son as Lord and Savior. But, we, through free will, can sabotage that agreement. In the parable of the Lost Son, the son had gained his Father's inheritance and then squandered it away. The Father was always there, ready to accept his son's return, but it was up to the son to REPENT and return back to the father. Without repenting and RETURNING to the father, salvation would have been lost. There are too many scriptures about falling away, not producing fruit, returning back to wickedness, all from Jesus, all written in red. He would not have kept repeating and warning of these things if salvation could not be lost no matter what. God gave us free will, it is our decision to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, and it is our decision to stay the course, to remain victorious until the end. Salvation covers all sins, none are greater than another, as we saw that in the parable of the debt collector, where one person owed 500 denari and the other just 50 denari but both debts were forgiven equally. But to think that you can not fall away is to be mistaken. People pull up the same two or three verses to prove that once saved always saved. But there are 10 times that amount warning of falling away. God will not take it away from us, just as the father accepted back his lost son, but we as the son have to return to the father. If the son allowed pride to when out, he would have fallen just as the father of all pride, Satan, fell. Free will is a double edged sword.

i respect your opinion, but i have to disagree...if salvation can be lost, then Jesus dieing on the cross for you was pointless, which is the whole center upon which Christianity revolves...what your describing is salvation based on works...Jesus died for you, so that you can obtain salvation for eternity for FREE...no fine print...his FREE gift was not a double edged sword

[312InchMagnum]

but what about the multiple year period in my life when i was intoxicated out of my mind more nights than i was sober? I couldnt have cared less about my walk, my sin, loving Christ, etc. Back then, I turned my back on Christ and chose to live my own life. What if Christ would have come back then?

Remember the Parable of the Prodigal Son.

What about King David murdering people and his affair with Bathsheba?...he was a man "after God's own heart"...did he still inherit the kingdom of God?...he was still a Christian, he was just temporarily living for himself/his will not God's...he was a human...

[biggen]

Good Stuff Guys!!

[Ballcoach10]

Lots of good stuff here. Happy to be able to learn from yal

[riverbowman]

What about King David murdering people and his affair with Bathsheba?...he was a man "after God's own heart"...did he still inherit the kingdom of God?...he was still a Christian, he was just temporarily living for himself/his will not God's...he was a human...

I think we would all agree that you can never be so gone you cannot repent, or "return" to the Lord like so many did in the Bible.

So the only real question is can you be saved if you die at a point in your life where you are denying and thereby blaspheming God?

Then we start the "well, that person wasn't ever a real Christian if they denied God" debate.

My brain hurts. Let's not go there.

[312InchMagnum]

I think we would all agree that you can never be so gone you cannot repent, or "return" to the Lord like so many did in the Bible.

So the only real question is can you be saved if you die at a point in your life where you are denying and thereby blaspheming God?

Then we start the "well, that person wasn't ever a real Christian if they denied God" debate.

My brain hurts. Let's not go there.

Best post thus far!!! Haha. You pose a great and difficult question. Maybe it can't be answered because only God sees the intent of our hearts.

[Shane]

i respect your opinion, but i have to disagree...if salvation can be lost, then Jesus dieing on the cross for you was pointless, which is the whole center upon which Christianity revolves...what your describing is salvation based on works...Jesus died for you, so that you can obtain salvation for eternity for FREE...no fine print...his FREE gift was not a double edged sword

I think maybe what Split Brow and I are trying to say is different than what you are hearing us say (I know....you're reading, not hearing) . But anyway.... What we are saying isn't in conflict with the free gift of grace, and we're not saying that salvation is dependent upon our works. I completely agree with you that we're saved by God's grace through Jesus' sacrifice, and we could never do enough to earn it or deserve it. It's ours for free if we just receive it. The only thing we're saying that's different than what you are saying is that we believe that, just as we are free to accept God's grace, we are free to reject it too. As long as we don't reject it, God's grace covers all of our sins, and there's nothing we or anyone else can do to take that away. But if we choose to reject God, then He will give us what we choose then just like He gives us what we choose when we choose to make Him Lord of our lives. Free will is what makes our relationships with Him so beautiful and meaningful. It wouldn't mean much if it was a given and we didn't have free will to choose to follow Him or reject Him.

I don't know if what I'm trying to say is coming across well or not. But the way you describe what we are trying to say isn't what I believe. I don't know how to say it any better, and it's OK if you disagree. I agree with riverbowman in that I don't think it's a salvation issue unless somebody somehow twists it into something much more than it is and it affects their relationship with God and/or other Christians in a negative way. You may be correct, and I may be wrong. Or maybe we're both off a little. I'm just sharing my thoughts and beliefs that I've come to based on my limited knowledge and ability to understand.

What about King David murdering people and his affair with Bathsheba?...he was a man "after God's own heart"...did he still inherit the kingdom of God?...he was still a Christian, he was just temporarily living for himself/his will not God's...he was a human...

Actually, David wasn't a Christian. He was a Jew who lived under the Old Law. His sins were rolled forward through the High Priests' sacrifices on the alter until they were ultimately covered by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (as I understand it). But all of that aside, his example fits perfectly with my beliefs. He sinned - and BOY! did he know how to sin. But his heart was 100% dedicated to God, even though he couldn't live perfectly. A Christian today that has the same heart for God as well as the same terrible human flaws and sins would have nothing to worry about regarding his/her salvation, as best I could tell.