Minimum draw weight?

[Mike Murphey]

FYI...originally the law for bowhunting was based on shooting a bow that would cast an arrow a certain distance...I think it was 150 yards, (please don't quote me on the distance but that is close, it's been too long ago)....back in the 80's it was revised to a draw weight because the LSBA suggested this to Parks and Wildlife as a better method because what game warden would make someone shoot their bow the required distance....and
40 lbs was easier to measure out in the field by the game warden, (it's marked on the bow limb)....40 lbs was a number that the LSBA council debated over and no scientific studies was performed.....I myself feel that 30-35 lbs is sufficient to take animals in Texas and once again the LSBA tried to lower that number to 30-35 lbs years ago and the bowhunters voice was no...leave it at 40 lbs. I feel that we need a minimum poundage just to keep someone going deer hunting with a underpoundage bow...and someone would do this (such as PETA, SPCAA, etc...) trying to make bowhunters look like the bad guys.

[Doublej]

Az2tx I'm not sure that I share that opinion.

Mike, I do appreciate your historical perspective on the issue and agree with it. I for one will be attending at least one of the hearings to voice just what you have said.

[WCB]

I would like TPWD to do some sort of study on this before lowering or eliminating the draw weight altogether.
All I've heard from here is that a handful of kids/women/older persons have done it.
Can any one of you tell me what the minimum draw weight or KE is that is required to not only kill a deer but have a good chance of hitting it's mark after a whitetail deer "jumps" the string. Not a guess. Not an I believe. Not that so and so did it. But a realistic study.
I am not opposed to lowering the draw weight, just want "some" proof or evidence. Is that asking to much?
I know my 70# modern compound will a kill lot further than my self imposed 30 yard limit but I have that limit for deer that drop at the first sound of the string.
Any of you MLD permit holders have a doe or cull we can shoot with a 20# bow and tipped w/a mechanical BH?

[tvc184]

My only question would be, is a #30 or a #35 bow capable of making a clean kill on a whitetail? Nothing else is even an issue. Shooting a 30-06 doesn't guarantee a whitetail kill but a .223 well placed will drop one in its tracks and it totally legal. Do we limit gun hunters to 30 caliber or better because it is much more powerful? Obviously the answer is "no".

Why a different standard for a bow?

A lower draw weight has nothing to do with the age someone wants to start their child hunting.

A lower draw weight has nothing to do with a parent's right to set goals for his child.

A person or child might have the ability to draw a #40 bow and thereby meet the current state law but maybe cannot shot it well or consistently. That same person might drop down to a #30 pound bow and be deadly. So which one should the person shoot, the one that is legal but the person is likely to miss or the one that the person is accurate and very likley to make that clean kill?

I just don't see the argument if it is shown that whatever the limit is set at, it can make a clean kill on a whitetail.

[Tommyh]

As the proposal stands I am strongly against it. I could be made to change my mind with relative ease but, there is going to have to be more to it than there is now.

This one is an easy workaround and the entire reason they want to hear from people on the matter. if we dont want it dropped altogether, simply tell them what we want and how we think it should be implemented. they can worry about the exact wording and final product.


Simple things like if you shoot less than a certain weight, then no mechanicals, which will affect everyone. bowhunter ed after born a certain year just like regular hunting. minimum draw weight of 30 OR 35#, and let them know what we think about each one and why.

To get a number for how much itll increase sales, they would have to take a sensus state wide and see what the number turn out to be. However, compare it to this. When they take deer surveys on your property for MLD permits, they cant see every buck and doe from the air or a spotlight survey so they have to go by what they calculate, which is just a best guess anyway.

Not everyone will be happy wit hthe change, but it is an effort to get more revenue for the state, and more people involved in hunting in general, and archery more specifically, that couldnt otherwise since crossbows arent legal during archery season.

[Cotton]

WCB, I know a 30# bow shooting a 300 grain arrow and a 75 grain Muzzy has enough KE to burry the arrow up to it's fletching right behind the shoulder of a 150# boar at 20 yards.

As far as being fast enough for a whitetail's ability to jump the string... it's 48fps faster than my 50# recurve and 12fps faster than my 83' Goldeneagle that was 85# with a 35% let off, I hunted with that bow for 14 years.

No guess or second hand info here, I set the bow up and was in the blind when the boar was shot.

[WCB]

Now that's giving me some actual numbers Cotton. Thanks.
But as far a doing away with the minimum altogether I would like to see a deer (dead) shot with a 20# longbow/recurve with any head. I'm not saying it won't do the job effectively, I don't know, just want some evidence/proof before I could bless it...
Anyone have a decent size hog we could "test" on???

[az2tx]

I would like TPWD to do some sort of study on this before lowering or eliminating the draw weight altogether.
All I've heard from here is that a handful of kids/women/older persons have done it.
Can any one of you tell me what the minimum draw weight or KE is that is required to not only kill a deer but have a good chance of hitting it's mark after a whitetail deer "jumps" the string. Not a guess. Not an I believe. Not that so and so did it. But a realistic study. I probably could give you a realistic study based on the 50-60 animals that I have shot on video, including the wildebeest that my son shot above, but it isn't worth the time. A whitetail can and will jump the string of a 300 fps arrow shot out of a 70# bow if the animal in NOT relaxed at the time of the shot.
I am not opposed to lowering the draw weight, just want "some" proof or evidence. Is that asking to much?
I know my 70# modern compound will a kill lot further than my self imposed 30 yard limit but I have that limit for deer that drop at the first sound of the string.Most string jumping occurs between 20-40 yards unless you have a real rattle trap for a bow
Any of you MLD permit holders have a doe or cull we can shoot with a 20# bow and tipped w/a mechanical BH? I have axis does that we are culling and I'm sure a 20 lb bow shot at 15 yards or less with an 85 grain stinger broadhead would do the job but only an idiot would try it with a mechanical head, but then again I think a mechanical head is a bad choice for most hunting unless the animal is soft like whitetail and the arrow is traveling at some respectible speeds

Some common sense needs to be applied somewhere to this issue, can a 30 lb bow cleanly kill a 300# animal? you bet in the right hands, I have it on video Are shots over 15-20 yards practical? nope. Are mechanical broadheads practical?, nope. Accuracy and penetrating are the only issues and does it take 40# of draw weight to achive either, no it does not. How many people out there chose to shoot 50-60 lbs because they are more accurate than when they shoot 70 lbs?
The same logic applies to the lighter bows, a kids may shoot 12's all day with 30 lbs but stuggles at 40, what poundage are they more deadly at?

These 40# min standards were set years ago before the introduction of the modern very efficient compound bow, and kids bows are no longer toys. I think the efficiency of compound bow has increased 30-40 percent over the last 25 years, so why not reflect this by changing the minmum standards?

[TimHicks]

all I am going to say is I am for lowering it,
Yes as said its shot placement,practice and knowledge all this must be drilled into a good bowhunter. Lauren just turned 5 and she is shooting Jasmines old recurve she cant pull it back real far and she still hits her mark time after time.
Anyone can call me or come over and see and talk with Lauren.She will show and tell you were you need to aim on both the deer target the hog target and te turkey target.
Lauren is going to be very small her genetics are a bit different than mine.But her mind and determination will factor in.Lauren also practices day after day with me..it slows me way down and is frustrating at times.but well worth it.
I hear all the time we need to get kids invloved and have seen many of you guys say it. How do you get kids involved really? By taking time and teaching them whats right and wrong,,the proper shot the right time to take it and making it count.This doesnt happen by giving a kid a 40 pound bow and saying go shoot a deer.
People like Buff that start them young and teach hunting the way its supposed to be.
Jasmine Smith is a great example,,and is used alot, Jasmine shoots her bow alot she was also taught by Howie where when and how..and when not to.
Like someone said you can give a grown up a 70 pound bow and shoot a bad shot this happens every day. The bottom line is its placement and a good broadhead.
I have a friend,,that has about 15 robinhoods into a target..he can shoot,this friend I speak of cant hunt for crap. Every shot he has shot has ended up with long trails and sometimes no recoveries. But he can shoot a target.
Hunting ,shot placement and skills are taught most times by parents or friends.
Choices are what we make in the woods today and teaching the right choices is a key element in this topic.
Back to Lauren..as she struggles to draw the recurve I see a smile on her face that makes me proud. Why because I know what I teach her she will teach her kids

[BustedAssRanch]

I hear all the time we need to get kids invloved and have seen many of you guys say it. How do you get kids involved really? By taking time and teaching them whats right and wrong,,the proper shot the right time to take it and making it count.This doesnt happen by giving a kid a 40 pound bow and saying go shoot a deer.

I have volunteered at the TPWD's expo for the last 2 years where we run a few kids through..something like 3000 this year I think...a lot of which have never touched a bow..of coarse with the kids are the adults that have never touched a bow either..That hopefully puts a spark in the kids or the adults.

Everyone on both sides of the fence has made interesting arguments..I still have not seen anything that makes me think we should use no minimum draw weight.

35#

[easton axis]

hey i live in utah now and there are alot of hunters up here that dont hunt right i worked in a bow shop for awile and there were alot of ladyes come in right befor archery season and buy bows that couldnot pull 40# but they could pull 35# but because the law is 40# they went and hunted like that and i herd of alot of wounded animals so i think that 35# is ok that way people are hunting right and not going out there with equpiment they cant use right

[tinman]

Changing the draw weight has EVERYTHING to do with a bow under 40#s ethically being able to take a Texas game animal. IMO, there’s just too much rock solid evidence that they are to argue otherwise.

Well said, Jeff.

[qzilla]

Any of you MLD permit holders have a doe or cull we can shoot with a 20# bow and tipped w/a mechanical BH?

I posted from my Blackberry on this and I am not sure if it did not go through or if it got deleted?

I have about 10 more does I am going to shoot. I am happy to have someone come out and do whatever is needed?

With all the politically connected people on here can we get a pass, or research permit to shoot some with a 20lb bow or something?

I plan on shooting them in the next couple of weeks so if we want to do something we need to act now.

[Hot4huntin]

Quad, to do the research, you will need to contact the Executive Director of TPWD, Carter Smith, and he can issue an executive decision to do the study. With the pending draw weight issue, it may be a good time to get TPWD to do so.

As Cotton said, we are sitting on the same fence. I am in agreement with the 40# draw weight. I believe that we need equipment that "consistently" kills humanely. Proper shot placement and razor sharp broadheads are always needed with any equipment. I have seen the success stories with lower weight equipment, but I wonder about the losses. I've seen the faster fps on modern low draw weight bows, but fact is, speed doesn't kill. I would rather see a heavier arrow used. The bowhunters that will be entering the field with this equipment will for the most part be inexperienced or new to the sport and will be more succeptible to mistakes. I'm sure Donnie and Howie did not allow their children in the field with a couple of shots. It seems they have worked with their children to help them build up to the legal limit and have taken some non-game animals on the way to help build experience. There are many beginners that will be entering the field with this equipment prior to being well trained. There will be people entering the field with the Genesis bow or other similar bows. The Genesis set at 20 lbs provides the same about of KE as a 35 lb recurve. By Mathews' on account, the bow is not meant for hunting, but target shooting only. There is a warning in the Owner's Manual. When I was checking the legal minimum draw weight in Tennessee, I had a Sargent GW tell me that they have seen an increase of wounded animals by people attempting to hunt with Genesis bows. Unfortunately, they do not keep official track of the wounding rate.

kids bows are no longer toys.

No, but they will be if there is no minimum draw weight. My daughter's cedar bow will be legal to hunt whitetail. Her Little Brave recurve will be legal to take pronghorn. My husband's 39 year old yellow fiberglass bow will be legal means to take a mule deer. Even with the proper arrow, broadhead and an experienced hunter, are these bows adequate to harvest a game animal?

I've spent several weekends in BPS' archery department helping bowhunters with bowhunting equipment. If you believe that there are not people who will attempt to bowhunt with less than effective equipment just to save a buck, you are only fooling yourself.

I'd rather see the draw weight lowered to 30#s than have no minimum draw weight at all. This would at least align with the archery exise tax not being charged on archery bows that are less than 30#s draw weight. The Legislation that removed the excise tax did so because it was not in the spirit of Pittman Robertson Restoration Act because bows less that 30#s were not adequate for hunting. It was done in hopes that the cheaper bows would allow people to afford to get involved in archery and build their interest into becoming bowhunters.

This is my personal opinion only and does not represent any organizations, businesses or companies with which I am associated.

[qzilla]

I'll see if I can talk to him tomorrow.

Then I have to find a kids bow to shoot them with!! Or find some kids to shoot them! That would be better but, having an adult shoot a kids bow would probably be more consistent with shot placement.