If this is true it really sucks....

[tvc184]

TVC, look up "navigable" under TP&W. There are two definitions.

Here's a link to the bill:
https://legiscan.com/TX/text/SB1236/id/2819525

I have looked at that bill about 15 times since yesterday. I have yet to be concerned with the definition of navigable.

Flywise asked about his deer stand on (I suspect near) the river bank.

I can find no TPWD definition of river (or stream) bank. I searched the word bank in the code. I search the term “river bank”. I searched words like navigable and any page that had that word, I ran a separate page search for “bank”. I have yet to find a definition in the TPWD Code that explain what is a river bank.

So the new (actually old in a few counties) law says basically, don’t shoot from the bank of a river or stream. As flywise asked, what is a river bank? The dictionary says the edge of the water or the slope leading down to the water. I think we can all understand that.

Does the TPWD Code give a different definition?

[diamond10x]

About the 4th or 5th thread on this bill…

This law is ridiculous. Simply put it’s about keeping hunters from hunting legally accessible and huntable public land. I don’t live in Texas anymore but I now lost a few spots I hunted hogs in. This wasn’t as if now there is two river bottoms taken away, there are a number of creeks and rivers in Texas that offered a lot of legal public land hunting to those who were willing to hike or boat off the beaten path.

[boy wonder]

The law is to stop people hunting in rivers where both banks are private. It is because people were floating rivers and killing deer up on the banks and also because many rivers are now developed and idiots were shooting up not knowing houses were up there. Blame it on the idiots doing it

That’s a good point, what other activities should we outlaw? Maybe driving since a large percentage of drivers exceed the speed limit.

[Hills of Texas]

Within the banks of the river with birdshot/dove hunting or buckshot/ deer hunting on the llano has always been legal. It’s “shot” so I bet it continues. I bet the locals here kill a couple hundred deer a year on the river and many thousand dove every year.

[Rwc]

Why does this suck? Who does it affect and how?

I really did not read all the post so some of my content may be redundant.

The way I interpret the law, it will render approximately 1/3 of my river grounds non hunt-able for deer/hogs unless I am using shotgun with no more than buckshot. So being a bow hunter, that affects me greatly, since I hunt the river banks below the high water marks for deer and hogs that tend to graze/root on the broad leaf and/or come down to water/wallow.

I wrote many letters in opposition to this law, and left many a messages for anyone that would listen. "Is intended to slow down the illegal taking of game along navigable waters" was what I was quoted multiple times. My response was, you mean this "LAW" is intended to stop a person that is already breaking game laws by adding another game law for him to break??????

I recommend each that hunt near a waterway, study the definition of "navigable waters of the U.S.", you may be surprised at how much that definition covers.....

Rwc

[fish4food]

It is true, largely due to former Game Warden Pete Flores.

Some things people are confused about:

This doesnt include shotguns with bird shot (waterfowl...ect)

This does not impact bowfishing.

Pete’s been out the TPWD game for a while, and wasn’t liked much while he was there; and less when he left.
what was his involvement in this? Just curious since you specifically listed his name.

[PoppinPiggies]

WOW this is horrible, I know on the stretch of public water I duck hunt a few times a year I get the cops called on me almost every year because private landowners think they own the river, I have never gotten a ticket from them just a greeting and have a good day and have always called the Game Warden before hand to let them know what I will be doing. Sounds to me like a bunch of private landowners are trying to keep all their deer private and not allow legal public hunting to be done that could take them, kinda like the King Ranch shoreline. Like others have said it's sad that a significant public hunting opportunity is being removed. Even if you don't have money you can still with a lot of extra effort find ways to hunt, this option unfortunately seems to be decreasing more and more to the point eventually hunting in Texas will pretty much become a rich mans sport unless you were blessed to be born into some family land or win a TPWD drawn hunt that will just see the draw odds decrease as more people are forced to go that route.

[RiverRat1]

I really did not read all the post so some of my content may be redundant.

The way I interpret the law, it will render approximately 1/3 of my river grounds non hunt-able for deer/hogs unless I am using shotgun with no more than buckshot. So being a bow hunter, that affects me greatly, since I hunt the river banks below the high water marks for deer and hogs that tend to graze/root on the broad leaf and/or come down to water/wallow.

I wrote many letters in opposition to this law, and left many a messages for anyone that would listen. "Is intended to slow down the illegal taking of game along navigable waters" was what I was quoted multiple times. My response was, you mean this "LAW" is intended to stop a person that is already breaking game laws by adding another game law for him to break??????

I recommend each that hunt near a waterway, study the definition of "navigable waters of the U.S.", you may be surprised at how much that definition covers.....

Rwc

Do you own the land? Hunting from a boat? I just want clarification on (in your case) the 1/3 of the river grounds you can no longer hunt.

Can anyone here honestly say if they owned 5k acres with a navigable river down the middle of it they would be OK with hunters floating through shooting game on the river banks?

[PoppinPiggies]

I've never hunted deer on a public river but I always liked the fact that if I ever lost all the other properties that I get to hunt on and couldn't find another that I still had that card in my back pocket as an option.

[PoppinPiggies]

Do you own the land? Hunting from a boat? I just want clarification on (in your case) the 1/3 of the river grounds you can no longer hunt.

Can anyone here honestly say if they owned 5k acres with a navigable river down the middle of it they would be OK with hunters floating through shooting game on the river banks?

If I was the property owner I would not be happy with the hunters floating down the middle shooting deer, that being said I would also take into consideration that it was a possibility that could happen when considering buying the place. I'm sure landowners that are next to public hunting grounds like LBJ Grasslands hate having deer shot next door as well but that possibility is just part of owning that particular property.

[diamond10x]

Do you own the land? Hunting from a boat? I just want clarification on (in your case) the 1/3 of the river grounds you can no longer hunt.

Can anyone here honestly say if they owned 5k acres with a navigable river down the middle of it they would be OK with hunters floating through shooting game on the river banks?

I’m all for private property rights but unless your deed has the stream bed in it, you don’t own it. This is no different than trying to tell someone else what they can and can’t do on their own property just cause you don’t like it. If it was a big deal either sell it or deal with it.

For clarification, there doesn’t have to be water in the river. Like said above people have hunted the llano for years. The nueces is a perfect example of a navigable waterway that gets hunted but is dry a lot of the time.

[Coyote Canyon]

I don’t think this applies state wide. If you go to TPWD.Texas.gov/oa/RestrictedAreas it tells you where it applies.

[tvc184]

Texas Grown had to private message me since this thread or the site, except for messages, was (again) locked up.

To the question posed by flywise about what is a river bank, it is not in the TPWD Code which is the law but in Texas case law as set down by the Texas Supreme Court… which makes it law.

The case law was not about a river or stream bank but about what is a navigable waterway. During those rulings however, a bank is defined.

This is part of a Texas Supreme Court case while describing what is a navigable waterway, has to show what the banks of the waterway are:

The banks of a stream or river are the water washed and relatively permanent elevations or acclivities at the outer lines of the river bed which separate the bed from the adjacent upland, whether valley or hill, and served to confine the waters within the bed and preserve the course of the river when they rise to the highest point at which they are still confined to a definite channel.

Since the stream is a navigable one, the elevations of land adjacent to its bed, which hold its navigable waters in place, and to which boats might be tied or anchored, and wharves or other instrumentalities of navigation attached, are its banks ...

So it is basically the bank is where the full river or stream is at when at full level without being in a flood. As it is described, the highest point where a stream or river is confined to a “definite channel”. As it further gives an example, where a boat could be tied. So if you pull a boat up to a full river or stream (grass line?), where you can step out and tie your boat, that is the bank from the way I am reading the Texas Supreme Court ruling.

So if a deer stand is 15-20 feet away from the high permanent high water mark, it isn’t on the bank…. from the way I read it…. which counts for absolutely nothing.

[tvc184]

I don’t think this applies state wide. If you go to TPWD.Texas.gov/oa/RestrictedAreas it tells you where it applies.

You are correct.

Well, for 35 more days when the new law goes into effect.

[Rwc]

Do you own the land? Hunting from a boat? I just want clarification on (in your case) the 1/3 of the river grounds you can no longer hunt.

Can anyone here honestly say if they owned 5k acres with a navigable river down the middle of it they would be OK with hunters floating through shooting game on the river banks?

Yes I own the land...or more accurately, my wife owns the land. Deed as recorded shows the western property boundary to be to the center of the river as surveyed at that time. I do not hunt the grounds from a boat. The law as I interpret it defines the river/creek system as "navigable waters" which if you dig enough, refers to the top of bank as a guideline (high water mark). The way the banks are shaped along my portion of the river, is from the top of bank to rivers edge is very gradual and hunt able and makes up approximately 1/3 of the tract as surveyed.

I would not be okay with a hunter floating down the river shooting game from the banks.

Hope I answered your questions clearly.

Rwc