Things I have learned.

[speck1]

Well I am 0-2 on the axis bucks I have hit this season. I take video of every shot and I have learned a lot. These bucks don't just duck they actually back up before the arrow gets to them. The mistake I made yesterday was not allowing for the backup. It has made the impact 3-4 inches further forward than I wanted. There is definitely a much higher learning curve to trad. I feel sorry for the next one because I have their game figured out. Good luck to all this season.

[Junkers88]

LOL! When ever I get to thinking that I'm shooting well enough to go out and try to take a deer with my recurve I get on YouTube and watch every "deer ducking the arrow" video that I can find. Then I head back out to my shooting area and practice some more. It surprises me how steep the learning curve is on white-tail and axis and how each animal while similar is so vastly different when it comes to hunting them. Shot placement, bone size/thickness, where their vitals actually are located, how they react to the sound of the shot.

Richard.

[Jmh05]

Man, those lessons hurt no matter what. I've hit and lost two nice bucks and an exotic when I first started hunting and can still feel the sting. BUT only way to move is forward.

Good luck and I hope you kill a monster.


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[SwampRabbit]

Interesting observation. Do their back legs move back? Do their hooves actually pick up and take a step back... or does the chest just move back as the "load" up for their next move?

I'm glad you are getting back up on your horse. It most definitely is a learning curve... one that I am hoping to figure out someday myself.

[speck1]

Interesting observation. Do their back legs move back? Do their hooves actually pick up and take a step back... or does the chest just move back as the "load" up for their next move?

I'm glad you are getting back up on your horse. It most definitely is a learning curve... one that I am hoping to figure out someday myself.

As their body drops it also slides back as they do it. I wish I could get my hi def videos to load on hear to show you. They are loading their weight to their back legs to run. The average drop on these axis is 10 inches down and 4-5 inches back. These shots are 15 yards with an arrow speed of 190 fps.

[SwampRabbit]

As their body drops it also slides back as they do it. I wish I could get my hi def videos to load on hear to show you. They are loading their weight to their back legs to run. The average drop on these axis is 10 inches down and 4-5 inches back. These shots are 15 yards with an arrow speed of 190 fps.

Sounds like you are describing what I refer to as the "duck and roll" versus the "duck and run."

I have seen both.

On the duck and run, the front drops, and the shoulder moves forward as the back legs load to spring forward. This is why I aim as tight forward as I can inline with the offside leg.

On the duck and roll, the front drops, but instead of lunging forward, the shoulders roll away as they perform an abrupt U-turn. Rather than stretching forward, the look like they are about to roll over. In fact, when I have hit them like this, they usually hit the deck on the offside before getting up and running innthe direction they were turning towards.

Aiming inside the V when they do this drops your odds as the V closes up and moves quick.

From the the advise I have read and been given... aiming for the armpit gives you a final arrow impact in the vitals the majority of the time if they move either way or not at all.

When I watch slomo videos on here. I look at the armpit in the first frame... and more times than not.. that pixel is where heart or double lung is at when the arrow reaches the deer.

I am not very experienced... been hunting trad for about 2 years with only a couple kills under my belt. so definitely take it as one person's perspective.

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[Shiloh]

Thats an intersting observation.
Im heading West this weekend and will hunt through Wednesday morning. I'm planning to shoot an axis buck (if I have a chance at a nice one), and definitely an axis doe if I get the chance. I changed my setup to 27% FOC 715 grains with a single bevel broadhead to compensate for a less than pefect shot or scapular hit - which is what seems to be the result if the duck like you say they are doing. My thinking is that the single bevel combined with mass and EFOC will turn a scapular hit into deadly penetration. The downside to the mass is - my velocity is only 160 now so I'm even slower than your 190. And 15 yards is not far yet they can still react in time!

[speck1]

I tend to overthink things more with trad bows than I ever did with my compound. My friend with the blood dogs told me not to worry so much about the perfect shot. He said just hit them low behind the elbow and the dogs will find them. How I managed to hit shoulder blade on two in a row is a mystery. I am gonna move back on the next one a let it fly.

[Chunky]

It is my opinion that the deer are not ducking the arrow at all, they are just trying to make the fastest escape possible when startled. To load up the legs to leap forward and get away, they go down and back. This lets them spring forward and go.

Think about it. If you are standing flat footed, how do you jump forward? Especially if you have strong back legs to load up with power.

This is not just when trad bows shoot at them, it's just that our arrows fly slowly enough that we can see them in the air and see what happens. They jump compounds as well, and the extra 200 fps doesn't hurt.

[Shiloh]

All good points.
Lets break this down using a 15 yard shot (45 feet).
Sound travels at 1120 fps at sea level, so 45/1120 = .04 seconds until the sound of the bow gets to the deer.
With my compound 70 pound Bowtech shooting a 425 grain arrow I get 298 fps.
Therefore, 45 feet / 298 fps = .151 seconds for my arrow to get to the deer. Now subtract the .04 seconds that it takes the sound to get to the deer (while my arrow is on it's way) means .151-.04=.111 seconds that the deer has to hear my shot and react by moving.
Now, my trad bow shooting a 715 grain arrow only gets 160 fps. Therefore, 45 feet / 160 fps = .281 seconds for my arrow to get there. Subtract the .04 seconds that it takes sound to get to the animal = .241 seconds that the deer has to hear my trad bow and react. Humans reaction time is about .25 seconds to a visual stimulous (I throw my keys at your face and you take about .25 seconds to react), and about .2 seconds for a loud sound like firecracker. We can probably all agree that a deer's reaction to a sound is very likey faster
than a human's especially if they are skittish or on alert. If we assume that their reaction to a sound stimulous is half of a humans, that means that it would take them about a tenth of a second to react to the shot from a trad bow. Of the .241 seconds that a deer has to react to the sound of my arrow, .10 seconds is wasted in registering the sound before they can react, which leaves them with .141 seconds to move before the arrow gets there. I think this is why they are able to duck and get hit in the spine if we aim middle of thorax. Think about how much your own head ducks when you hear a loud sudden BOOM! After you regestered the sound, you are probably able to duck your head at least 4 inches from the sound. But a deer's reflexes are faster than the best human athlete - so its no wonder they can duck enough to get hit high - especially from the slower trad bow.
What do yall think?

[Shiloh]

So, using the same cowboy math as above:
at 20 yards - I figured that they have .221 seconds of time to move from the moment they hear my trad bow thump until my arrow hits them.
They can move a lot in .221 seconds unless they are totally bliss and relaxed.

[speck1]

Great job with the math Shiloh. The axis around here are ninjas! I am gonna test what I have seen by shooting at where I think they will be when my arrow gets there instead of where they are when I release. I keep telling myself to shoot at whitetail as they seem to be easier for me to kill but then the dang axis start taunting me.

[M.E.B.]

It is my opinion that the deer are not ducking the arrow at all, they are just trying to make the fastest escape possible when startled. To load up the legs to leap forward and get away, they go down and back. This lets them spring forward and go.

Think about it. If you are standing flat footed, how do you jump forward? Especially if you have strong back legs to load up with power.

This is not just when trad bows shoot at them, it's just that our arrows fly slowly enough that we can see them in the air and see what happens. They jump compounds as well, and the extra 200 fps doesn't hurt.

Here is my opinion.

Deer do not know what an bow or an arrow is. They think that predators, lions and humans, will chase them and catch them. Jump on their back and pull them down.

I think they are dropping to load their legs as many stated but I also think they drop in hopes of the lion flying over the top of their back.

My opinion. And we all have one.

Really does not matter WHY they do it but THAT they do it.

[SwampRabbit]

All good points.
Lets break this down using a 15 yard shot (45 feet).
Sound travels at 1120 fps at sea level, so 45/1120 = .04 seconds until the sound of the bow gets to the deer.
With my compound 70 pound Bowtech shooting a 425 grain arrow I get 298 fps.
Therefore, 45 feet / 298 fps = .151 seconds for my arrow to get to the deer. Now subtract the .04 seconds that it takes the sound to get to the deer (while my arrow is on it's way) means .151-.04=.111 seconds that the deer has to hear my shot and react by moving.
Now, my trad bow shooting a 715 grain arrow only gets 160 fps. Therefore, 45 feet / 160 fps = .281 seconds for my arrow to get there. Subtract the .04 seconds that it takes sound to get to the animal = .241 seconds that the deer has to hear my trad bow and react. Humans reaction time is about .25 seconds to a visual stimulous (I throw my keys at your face and you take about .25 seconds to react), and about .2 seconds for a loud sound like firecracker. We can probably all agree that a deer's reaction to a sound is very likey faster
than a human's especially if they are skittish or on alert. If we assume that their reaction to a sound stimulous is half of a humans, that means that it would take them about a tenth of a second to react to the shot from a trad bow. Of the .241 seconds that a deer has to react to the sound of my arrow, .10 seconds is wasted in registering the sound before they can react, which leaves them with .141 seconds to move before the arrow gets there. I think this is why they are able to duck and get hit in the spine if we aim middle of thorax. Think about how much your own head ducks when you hear a loud sudden BOOM! After you regestered the sound, you are probably able to duck your head at least 4 inches from the sound. But a deer's reflexes are faster than the best human athlete - so its no wonder they can duck enough to get hit high - especially from the slower trad bow.
What do yall think?

The math is good. I have posted similar reponses in several threads over the years.

Did you know that if a runner leaves the blocks within 100ms of the gun, they are considered false start.

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[Mikeflies]

Great observation. I'm new to bowhunting so I'm just reading all I can to learn. Where in Boerne can I go for tips to help set me. First time bow owner.