Suppressors and Reloading

[jokker1978]

I have a 300 blk that when I put the suppressor on it is about 6 inches low. Still groups good. Just low.

[Outbreaker]

I'm not afraid of math, it's true. I'd be fascinated to see what load changes you'd make for suppressed and unsuppressed.

I no longer shoot any rifles unsuppressed except my legacy rifles.....and those have no suppressor and their own loads.

[sierracharlie338]

Your groupings will be very similar but you will see a point of impact shift. For one of my rifles it shoots slightly better suppressed vs not. Another rifle is the opposite. For the record I am talking maybe a 1/4 of an inch at the very most.

[Jethro]

I shoot a lot of precision rifle with several different rifle/suppressor combos.

Generally you can tune up loads and be fairly close. Some I have even tuned loads before and after and it the load was still right on the node. However most require at least some tweaking of powder charge weight once the can goes on to get them right back dead on the center of the accuracy node.

Also in general, shorter stiffer barrels require less tweaking after the fact than longer skinnier barrels. Not always, but usually. That is my experience.

Nearly always you will have at least some POI shift when adding a can, but that is a completely separate issue than load tuning. Some folks seem to confuse the two. There is also the issue of repeatable POI shift. Most quality suppressors can go on and off with very minimal (or even zero) shifting of POI from one time to another. Not all will though. Some cans will shift POI around a bit every time they come off and back on.

I know not everyone is going to agree with me on these things. I shoot 3-5 days a week right here at work and have tested and retested everything I have said here, multiple times.

Now, that doesn't mean load testing at this point is useless. Usually if a rifle/barrel likes a particular bullet and powder combination without a can, it will like it with the can too. You can also get a very good idea of exactly where you are going to hit pressure and have a good general idea of where to look for nodes once your can is on the rifle. But I would for sure wait until the can was on the rifle to put the final tune on the load. Then again, I may be more particular than most. Not everyone has the same expectations.

[meltingfeather]

I shoot a lot of precision rifle with several different rifle/suppressor combos.

Generally you can tune up loads and be fairly close. Some I have even tuned loads before and after and it the load was still right on the node. However most require at least some tweaking of powder charge weight once the can goes on to get them right back dead on the center of the accuracy node.

Also in general, shorter stiffer barrels require less tweaking after the fact than longer skinnier barrels. Not always, but usually. That is my experience.

Nearly always you will have at least some POI shift when adding a can, but that is a completely separate issue than load tuning. Some folks seem to confuse the two. There is also the issue of repeatable POI shift. Most quality suppressors can go on and off with very minimal (or even zero) shifting of POI from one time to another. Not all will though. Some cans will shift POI around a bit every time they come off and back on.

I know not everyone is going to agree with me on these things. I shoot 3-5 days a week right here at work and have tested and retested everything I have said here, multiple times.

Now, that doesn't mean load testing at this point is useless. Usually if a rifle/barrel likes a particular bullet and powder combination without a can, it will like it with the can too. You can also get a very good idea of exactly where you are going to hit pressure and have a good general idea of where to look for nodes once your can is on the rifle. But I would for sure wait until the can was on the rifle to put the final tune on the load. Then again, I may be more particular than most. Not everyone has the same expectations.

this is my experience as well.

[Cottonfish]

Outstanding responses from all! I really appreciate the insight, you have encouraged me to go ahead with "preliminary" load development that I will adjust when I get the can. I know to expect POI shift, I can accommodate that. I was mostly curious about changing accuracy nodes and pressure unsuppressed vs suppressed.

The rifle is a Ruger American Rifle compact, 20" threaded barrel in 6.5CM (Predator contour) in a Boyd's stock. The can is a SilencerCo Omega that I plan on using direct-threaded with a flat end cap to reduce length and weight. I'll also shoot it with the moderator it comes with to see if it significantly reduces recoil. Although the gun shoots really well with factory ammo, it is most accurate with Hornady 140gr HPBT American Gunner, which I would not be confident hunting medium game with (match rather than game bullet). I have a goodly amount of H4350 that I want to push some 143gr ELDx's with.

Stu

[Mike D]

I no longer shoot any rifles unsuppressed except my legacy rifles.....and those have no suppressor and their own loads.

Me too. I can’t remember the last time I shot a bolt rifle or AR style rifle unsuppressed.


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[Outbreaker]

Me too. I can’t remember the last time I shot a bolt rifle or AR style rifle unsuppressed.


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I can. My grandfathers .303 Enfield and his 1917 Enfield made by Winchester.

[Balcones_Walker]

Outstanding responses from all! I really appreciate the insight, you have encouraged me to go ahead with "preliminary" load development that I will adjust when I get the can. I know to expect POI shift, I can accommodate that. I was mostly curious about changing accuracy nodes and pressure unsuppressed vs suppressed.

The rifle is a Ruger American Rifle compact, 20" threaded barrel in 6.5CM (Predator contour) in a Boyd's stock. The can is a SilencerCo Omega that I plan on using direct-threaded with a flat end cap to reduce length and weight. I'll also shoot it with the moderator it comes with to see if it significantly reduces recoil. Although the gun shoots really well with factory ammo, it is most accurate with Hornady 140gr HPBT American Gunner, which I would not be confident hunting medium game with (match rather than game bullet). I have a goodly amount of H4350 that I want to push some 143gr ELDx's with.

Stu

Sounds like a great combination.

[bearintex]

I have a goodly amount of H4350 that I want to push some 143gr ELDx's with.

Stu

What do you consider a goodly amount? Wanna sell any of it? I'm getting desperate, about to switch powders if I can't find any.

[Jethro]

Mine is a trued Rem 40 X, 22" Bartlein barrel with ASR brake, Sico Omega, shooting 143 ELD-X in Hornady brass with BR-2 primers. High node for me is right at 42.2 grains of H-4350 (got 18 lbs, not for sale, but if I were looking for a replacement I would try RL-16, not 4451). I have not shot my Omega with a flat end cap, just the anchor brake. But set up the way I have it, it does significantly reduce felt recoil. I suspect you will find high node somewhere in that 42 to 42.5 range. Low node somewhere down around 41 to 41.5. Of course every rifle is different and it also depends on what brass you are using but those are very common places to find the nodes.

When I first got my Creedmoor 4 years ago I shot quite a bit of the 140 Hornady BTHPM. Really, it shot pretty good for a cheap bullet. But the BC isn't that great, and for sure it doesn't fly through trans-sonic well. When it hits trans-sonic it is done. For shooting steel I really like the Scenar 136L even though they have gotten a bit pricey. They are extremely accurate in my rifle and fly through trans-sonic well. 143 ELD-X is not quite as accurate in my rifle. But the BC is quite a bit better, and they cost 25% less, so that means more shooting and an expanding bullet made for hunting.

Oh, and if those are factory threads on that barrel be sure and check them close before you put any rounds through the can. Factory threads are notorious for being kind of hit or miss on alignment. Probably fine, but you never know. If suspect, Morgan Richey can get you fixed back up for $50-$65.

[bearintex]

Mine is a trued Rem 40 X, 22" Bartlein barrel with ASR brake, Sico Omega, shooting 143 ELD-X in Hornady brass with BR-2 primers. High node for me is right at 42.2 grains of H-4350 (got 18 lbs, not for sale, but if I were looking for a replacement I would try RL-16, not 4451). I have not shot my Omega with a flat end cap, just the anchor brake. But set up the way I have it, it does significantly reduce felt recoil. I suspect you will find high node somewhere in that 42 to 42.5 range. Low node somewhere down around 41 to 41.5. Of course every rifle is different and it also depends on what brass you are using but those are very common places to find the nodes.

When I first got my Creedmoor 4 years ago I shot quite a bit of the 140 Hornady BTHPM. Really, it shot pretty good for a cheap bullet. But the BC isn't that great, and for sure it doesn't fly through trans-sonic well. When it hits trans-sonic it is done. For shooting steel I really like the Scenar 136L even though they have gotten a bit pricey. They are extremely accurate in my rifle and fly through trans-sonic well. 143 ELD-X is not quite as accurate in my rifle. But the BC is quite a bit better, and they cost 25% less, so that means more shooting and an expanding bullet made for hunting.

Oh, and if those are factory threads on that barrel be sure and check them close before you put any rounds through the can. Factory threads are notorious for being kind of hit or miss on alignment. Probably fine, but you never know. If suspect, Morgan Richey can get you fixed back up for $50-$65.

$75 for a bare barrel including return shipping. Got one on the way to him now.......

Why not 4451? I’m to the point of grabbing the next one I find.

[meltingfeather]

What do you consider a goodly amount? Wanna sell any of it? I'm getting desperate, about to switch powders if I can't find any.

There's plenty of it for sale on Gunbroker and most dealers will combine Hazmat shipping (one charge for multiple jugs), so you can get 16# for $550 or so.

[Jethro]

$75 for a bare barrel including return shipping. Got one on the way to him now.......

Why not 4451? I’m to the point of grabbing the next one I find.

I know I'm gonna get a lot of kickback on this, but anyways...

Me and several other guys I know have been having trouble with it forming carbon rings. Not always, but some situations it is fairly bad. Friend of mine shooting a 22 LRV had horrible problems with it, losing accuracy, bad pressure spikes. To me it just doesn't burn as clean as it should. Search the net and you can find examples of other folks having this issue as well. I am sure I will get some folks on here saying it is fine, they have had no trouble. If so then great. But personally I have seen enough issues with it I will find something easier.

If you look on Precision Rifle Blog, he did a test on temp stability. Even though 4451 is touted as being very temp stable, it did not fare near as well in that test as I expected it would.

Plus, RL-16 is showing really good velocities in the 6.5 Creed, even better than H-4350. If it were me I would look that direction.

[Cottonfish]

LOL bearintex, I only have about 5lbs but consider that a "goodly" amount for me.

Jethro, thanks plenty for your info - I'll definitely have those factory threads checked before shooting through the can. Good to know about the RL16, I've never loaded for the 6.5cm before. I agree about the BC on that 140 BTHP, it's just proven more accurate than factory-loaded 143 ELD-x bullets.

Stu