Custom Hand Loads

[Hoggslayer]

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[Horitexan]

I seat the bullets where I know they shoot well, based on experience with previous loads and testing. For example, a Berger VLD likes to be seated just touching the lands, or just off. I will seat the bullet there, and then tune the load with the powder charge. I can find a good load and tune it much faster (20-25 rounds) doing this, than messing with various seating depths in multiple range trips. And if the powder charge you selected is out of the accuracy node, it won't matter where you seat the bullet, because it still won't shoot well. The method I use helps find a good load with 1 range trip, maybe 2, if the first trip doesn't produce. If it is a common caliber, then only 1 range trip is generally needed.

Chad

Custom Reloads of Dallas
www.dallasreloads.com

Hey, if it works for you, that's awesome! Different strokes.....

I agree 100% that VLDs usually prefer a very small jump OR right at the lands. Every barrel is going to have its own preference. I guess that's my question: how do you pick that seating depth if you're not testing different lengths? If you're developing for a magazine fed rifle that won't fit VLDs seated long out to/near the lands, how do you 'determine' that seating depth? VLDs will shoot great in a lot of rifles with a .050-.090" jump as well - per Berger's recommendations. http://www.bergerbullets.com/getting...in-your-rifle/

I'm always looking to learn and I'm totally open to new ways of doing things. I love the idea of saving time (even though my range is about 20yds from my loading bench) but I just don't see how a precise load is developed and refined (short of some pretty major luck) without at least some exploration of seating depth. I guess it depends on the results a person is looking for: 1" Sub moa, .5moa, .4moa, .3, .25, etc. Kudos to ya if you can get it done by just trying a single or a couple of seating depths! That's friggin amazing!


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[bboswell]

Hey, if it works for you, that's awesome! Different strokes.....

I agree 100% that VLDs usually prefer a very small jump OR right at the lands. Every barrel is going to have its own preference. I guess that's my question: how do you pick that seating depth if you're not testing different lengths? If you're developing for a magazine fed rifle that won't fit VLDs seated long out to/near the lands, how do you 'determine' that seating depth? VLDs will shoot great in a lot of rifles with a .050-.090" jump as well - per Berger's recommendations. http://www.bergerbullets.com/getting...in-your-rifle/

I'm always looking to learn and I'm totally open to new ways of doing things. I love the idea of saving time (even though my range is about 20yds from my loading bench) but I just don't see how a precise load is developed and refined (short of some pretty major luck) without at least some exploration of seating depth. I guess it depends on the results a person is looking for: 1" Sub moa, .5moa, .4moa, .3, .25, etc. Kudos to ya if you can get it done by just trying a single or a couple of seating depths! That's friggin amazing!


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Agreed. Prime example are the two 280AI's is my house. Both shoot 150g LRAB's great but one likes 0.040 jump and the other didn't group until 0.120 jump. I thought we had a big advantage knowing that this particular bullet liked 0.040 jump but were less than pleased with the 3/4"-1" groups, adjusted seating in 0.030 increments and boom @ 0.120 five shots fell into the 0.2's.

This was a low node and we have continued to up the powder charges but now that we hit the preferred seating nothing we load goes much over 1/2", we have about 1g more to reach book max and groups are showing another node is close. Based on signs so far I don't think this rifle will be limited to book max.

[Horitexan]

Agreed. Prime example are the two 280AI's is my house. Both shoot 150g LRAB's great but one likes 0.040 jump and the other didn't group until 0.120 jump. I thought we had a big advantage knowing that this particular bullet liked 0.040 jump but were less than pleased with the 3/4"-1" groups, adjusted seating in 0.030 increments and boom @ 0.120 five shots fell into the 0.2's.

This was a low node and we have continued to up the powder charges but now that we hit the preferred seating nothing we load goes much over 1/2", we have about 1g more to reach book max and groups are showing another node is close. Based on signs so far I don't think this rifle will be limited to book max.

What you're describing is pretty common from my experience - for my own reloading, anyway.


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[ChadTRG42]

Hey, if it works for you, that's awesome! Different strokes.....

I agree 100% that VLDs usually prefer a very small jump OR right at the lands. Every barrel is going to have its own preference. I guess that's my question: how do you pick that seating depth if you're not testing different lengths? If you're developing for a magazine fed rifle that won't fit VLDs seated long out to/near the lands, how do you 'determine' that seating depth? VLDs will shoot great in a lot of rifles with a .050-.090" jump as well - per Berger's recommendations. http://www.bergerbullets.com/getting...in-your-rifle/

I'm always looking to learn and I'm totally open to new ways of doing things. I love the idea of saving time (even though my range is about 20yds from my loading bench) but I just don't see how a precise load is developed and refined (short of some pretty major luck) without at least some exploration of seating depth. I guess it depends on the results a person is looking for: 1" Sub moa, .5moa, .4moa, .3, .25, etc. Kudos to ya if you can get it done by just trying a single or a couple of seating depths! That's friggin amazing!


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If I am loading for a rifle that has a short magazine box, and the customer wants a VLD, I recommend a different bullet. I see this often with the Browning A-bolt rifles. A-bolts have a VERY short magazine box (3.350" for the long action and magnum calibers) which does not allow you to seat bullets close to the lands. If they want a VLD, I'll explain that it will not work well for this rifle, and we will select something different. I will recommend a bullet that will tolerate a jump, something that is more tangent ogive design. With the newer, heavier/longer aggressive bullets now, not all rifles can be made to shoot every bullet. You do have to have a plan and some knowledge on what will work to give you the best chance to get it to shoot well ahead of time.

I know Berger "says" the VLD's will work with a certain jump. I still find the consistency is not 100% there with these bullets jumping a long way to the rifling. I've tried it in many rifles, and groups are ok. But if you switched bullets to a tangent ogive, the seating depth is much less a factor.

Also, if you are shooting a bullet that is not jump sensitive (tangent ogive), the load can be tuned to most any seating depth with varying the powder charge and dialing in the load with the powder charge. There would be no need to play with the seating depth once you find the sweet spot with the powder charge. Yes, there is more than 1 way to find a good shooting load. My method is with the powder charge. After testing and shooting hundreds of rifles and playing with just about every bullet out there, you find what works and what doesn't.

If you tune the load with the seating depth, you have to go to the range (trip 1), to see where the rifle shoots well with a certain powder charge (similar to the target I posted above). Range trip #1 should take about 20-30 rounds. Once you have this info, then you can vary the seating depth to see what improvements you can make (range trip #2). During range trip #2, you need about 15-20 rounds. If you find a good load, then it took you about 35-50 rounds to get it dialed in. That's a lot of rounds and range trips. If you just select a powder charge and get lucky with playing with the seating depth and find a good load, then you go lucky. But I can't rely on luck when dialing in a rifle.

Remember, when you fire a round, the bullet is moving down the barrel, and the barrel flexes and whips around (on a very small scale), like a wave in an ocean. A load typically will shoot bad when the barrel releases the bullet in a varying position during the barrel whipping. I am trying to tune the load where the bullet is released in the same position every time during the barrel whip. This is what works for me. It's the easiest method to find a good load with the fewest rounds. But there are certainly other methods of finding a good load. IMO, they just take longer and require more rounds and more range trips.

Chad

Custom Reloads of Dallas

https://www.dallasreloads.com

[Horitexan]

If I am loading for a rifle that has a short magazine box, and the customer wants a VLD, I recommend a different bullet. I see this often with the Browning A-bolt rifles. A-bolts have a VERY short magazine box (3.350" for the long action and magnum calibers) which does not allow you to seat bullets close to the lands. If they want a VLD, I'll explain that it will not work well for this rifle, and we will select something different. I will recommend a bullet that will tolerate a jump, something that is more tangent ogive design. With the newer, heavier/longer aggressive bullets now, not all rifles can be made to shoot every bullet. You do have to have a plan and some knowledge on what will work to give you the best chance to get it to shoot well ahead of time.



I know Berger "says" the VLD's will work with a certain jump. I still find the consistency is not 100% there with these bullets jumping a long way to the rifling. I've tried it in many rifles, and groups are ok. But if you switched bullets to a tangent ogive, the seating depth is much less a factor.



Also, if you are shooting a bullet that is not jump sensitive (tangent ogive), the load can be tuned to most any seating depth with varying the powder charge and dialing in the load with the powder charge. There would be no need to play with the seating depth once you find the sweet spot with the powder charge. Yes, there is more than 1 way to find a good shooting load. My method is with the powder charge. After testing and shooting hundreds of rifles and playing with just about every bullet out there, you find what works and what doesn't.



If you tune the load with the seating depth, you have to go to the range (trip 1), to see where the rifle shoots well with a certain powder charge (similar to the target I posted above). Range trip #1 should take about 20-30 rounds. Once you have this info, then you can vary the seating depth to see what improvements you can make (range trip #2). During range trip #2, you need about 15-20 rounds. If you find a good load, then it took you about 35-50 rounds to get it dialed in. That's a lot of rounds and range trips. If you just select a powder charge and get lucky with playing with the seating depth and find a good load, then you go lucky. But I can't rely on luck when dialing in a rifle.



Remember, when you fire a round, the bullet is moving down the barrel, and the barrel flexes and whips around (on a very small scale), like a wave in an ocean. A load typically will shoot bad when the barrel releases the bullet in a varying position during the barrel whipping. I am trying to tune the load where the bullet is released in the same position every time during the barrel whip. This is what works for me. It's the easiest method to find a good load with the fewest rounds. But there are certainly other methods of finding a good load. IMO, they just take longer and require more rounds and more range trips.



Chad



Custom Reloads of Dallas



www.dallasreloads.com

Thanks for the insight! When you're developing a load, for a client, what sort of accuracy (group size) are you typically looking for?


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[ChadTRG42]

Depends on the rifle, scope, and cartridge I'm shooting. If it's a full custom build with a thick barrel and quality stock that's been bedded properly to the action, sub 1/2 moa is generally attainable. Like the 243 Win load work up from above, I'm reading what the target will tell me on where I'm at with with the accuracy node. And I'm using the chronograph at the same time to tell me where my speeds are to make sure I'm in the ball park of where I want to be, all while looking for low ES numbers.

If the rifle is a factory rifle with an unbedded stock, with a thin #2 contour sporter weight barrel, chambered in a big magnum, it may only shoot 3/4 moa to 1 moa groups. The barrel is going to heat up and start to throw shots after 3-4 rounds. You can't make a target rifle out of a light weight hunting rifle. You can certainly improve the groups and consistency by tuning the load to the rifle. But I can't tell you it will be shooting same hole groups for 5 rounds. It's just not the reality.

Also, the RUM rounds (7mm RUM and 300 RUM) are the only one's I will not guarantee less than MOA. The RUM rounds are VERY finicky to work with. It's like putting a large big block motor with a blower on it in a Ford Pinto. For this round, Remington crammed as much powder as possible in a magnum round in the smallest area and put a bullet on top of it. It's just too much happening in a small space. I'm not saying they can't be made to shoot well, because they certainly can. It's just the general consensus for the RUM's is that they are picky on the loads. I try not to go too aggressive with the bullet choices on these rounds to help aid on getting them to shoot well. I did have a customer build a heavy barreled custom 300 RUM and we found a sub 1/2 moa load with the new 220 ELD-X bullets form Hornady. That made a GREAT combo for this round. But it's not a caliber you shoot 50 times in a range session, only a few rounds at a time.

Here's another example I shot a month ago (see target below). It's a shorter barreled 7 Mag with 180 VLD-H. Load A is nice and tight and what I'm looking for, but it's kind of slow for a 7 Mag. That's 3 rounds almost touching, and 4 rounds in less than an inch at 200 yards. That's a great small group, but I want more speed. I shoot Loads B, C, and D, and the groups are stringing and open. This tells me I am not in the accuracy node, and I need to keep changing my powder charge to dial in the load. Load E started to tighten up and shot about 2". Load E group is not stringing, it's just open. This tells me I'm about to come into a node in the next group or two. I don't have a picture of the second range trip target, but the next load up shot about like Load A did, nice and tight and 120 fps faster than Load A. So, we found the next accuracy node 120 fps later. The whole time I'm reading what the groups are telling me. Are the groups stringing? Are the groups open? Are my speeds where I want them to be? Is the rifle responding to my scope commands properly? These answers will tell me what's going on with the rifle and loads. I'm looking for all these answers when I'm shooting.



Chad

Custom Reloads of Dallas

https://www.dallasreloads.com