Questions about building a custom rifle, CajunBlake, MikeD, others....

[txfireguy2003]

A thread the other day about somebody's custom .260 he built got me to thinking about building a custom rifle again. Of course, I can't do it anytime real soon, got too many other obligations at the moment, but I'm working toward financial freedom and getting fairly close to it, so as my reward, I think I want to build one when I get where I'm going. I want to have a plan in mind when I get ready to start. My background though, makes me want to build it myself, I'm the type of guy who hates paying someone to do what I can do myself. I'm also very meticulous and really want to do as much of the work myself as possible, but I also want it to be as professional quality as I can get without buying a bunch of heavy equipment etc. I want a Rem700 pattern so I can use a stock I already have with minimal fitting required, medium contour barrel, not a lightweight sporter, but not a heavy varmint either, somewhere in the middle. I'm undecided on caliber thus far, but I'm leaning toward a 6.5 or 7mm something or other, maybe a 7mmWSM. Here's what I'm thinking so far:

ACTION: Other options welcomed
Stiller TAC 30: shouldn't need any blueprinting, well made SS action

BARREL: Anybody making a prechambered and contoured barrel that is notably better than Shilen? Something a guy could install in his home for the most part, with minimal actual machine work?
Shilen SS prechambered and contoured barrel, possibly with muzzlebrake depending on caliber chosen: I'll spend the money for their top of the line barrel, not just the standard "Match" barrel, although I hear the regular match barrel is dang good as it is. These barrels need the shoulder set back for headspacing, they say .010-.015". I don't have a lathe, but don't want to spend the money on a gunsmith to fit and headspace it plus like I said, I want to be the actual builder, so I was thinking of adjusting headspacing the same way the AAC barrels deal with it, by using a different thickness recoil lug. Of course, a standard recoil lug, with 10-15 thou ground off of it might be too thin to be effective, so I would need to have the shoulder set back some anyway, but I'm thinking any decent machinist with a lathe could do that, doesn't have to be a gunsmith. So, set the shoulder back 10-15 thou (maybe more and use an extra thick lug, then fit the barrel up and figure out how thick of a recoil lug I need, then order one exactly that size from PTG or a little thicker and find a machinist who can surface grind it to make it the correct thickness. (Will this work? Any other ideas besides paying a gunsmith to fit the barrel? I like Savage rifles, but I'm not a fan of the barrel nut on a custom gun, i know Shilen offers basically a Tac30 action with barrel nut setup and floating bolt head, kind of a Remington/Savage hybrid, but the barrel nut just looks cheap to me, plus I'm thinking it would require more inletting in the stock. Is there a read benefit to the floating bolt head?)

STOCK: This is pretty set since I already have it, but maybe I could work a trade for a different stock if there is something notably better.
Boyds laminated thumbhole stock, bedded with pillars and devcon for this action. I already have the stock, acquired in a deal a while back. I like it and Kaitlin's rifle has the same stock in a different color, so I figured I'd put it to use.

MAGAZINE AND BOTTOM METAL: Other options welcomed.
Wyatt's Mag box and bottom metal for the ability to load slightly longer cartridge overall length.

TRIGGER: Is there anything worth noting besides Timney and Jewell, and if so, what are their advantages?
Timney Trigger set to my preference. (may go Jewell, but it's quite a bit more expensive, and from what I've read, debatably not perfect for a hunting rifle that might get dirty/dusty)

Can this even be done? Am I missing anything? Will this work? If I do my part with precision in fitting, how are my component choices? Are there better options? What type of accuracy could I reasonably expect from these components, self assembled with the utmost care toward precision? Is this something any of you guys would take on, or would you just send it off to a smith? I feel like if I can do it, and get accuracy better than your average off the shelf rifle, I'll be very happy and have that feeling of accomplishment being able to honestly say "I built his rifle myself, from parts, and it is the most accurate rifle I own."

[Mike D]

Luke, let me really think about all of your questions and I'll respond later when I'm not on my phone.

[Capt.Bryan]

I was doing some checking on this myself. I found an article on the brownells website on building your own 700. They used a Shilen short chambered barrel and finished the chamber with a hand reamer to set the headspacing. If you search: building a Remington 700, the first hit I get is the Brownells. It gives a step by step approach in the article.

Good luck and keep us up to date on the progress.

[txfireguy2003]

I was doing some checking on this myself. I found an article on the brownells website on building your own 700. They used a Shilen short chambered barrel and finished the chamber with a hand reamer to set the headspacing. If you search: building a Remington 700, the first hit I get is the Brownells. It gives a step by step approach in the article.

Good luck and keep us up to date on the progress.

Yeah, I've seen those videos too and thought about doing it that way myself. The problem i have with it is that I understand that it's very easy to screw up the chamber using the hand reamer. If you're not perfectly straight in the chamber, and how can you assure that you are while pushing and turning, you'll end up with an egg shaped chamber our one that's wallowed out on the sides. I also think the factory finished and polished chamber of a finish chambered barrel will be cleaner and easier to work with than one you ream out by hand, easier extraction, easier loading, maybe better case life (reloading) etc. i just feel more comfortable with a chamber that's already complete than with one that I cut by hand.

[Cajun Blake]

Luke,

just my opinions brother .... as I'm also OCD and **** like the rest of us. Follow my logic.


If I need brain surgery, I'm finding the best brain surgeon money can buy

If I need a new transmission installed in my vehicle, I'm doing some homework and finding the best guy in town

If I need a new septic tank installed at the house, I'm calling the most reputable guy who wont specializes in this profession

.... get my drift ?

I'm all about DIY on some projects, but for a custom rifle build you will likely need a lathe, mill, reamers, precision indexing gauges, micrometers, and specialized tools which a competent gunsmith already has. Most gunsmiths can chamber a barrel in their sleep and complete the job in 1-2 hours. Believe me you can DIY on some things but you will need certain tools to complete the job.

My point is, If I want the most accurate , tack-driving, one hole, precision built rifle, I'm buying the parts separately and delivering them to the best gunsmith I can afford.

Renting a reamer and gauges will cost you $100. A lathe is extremely important to make sure the barrel and reamer are precisely indexed, centered, and have little to no readout. If you mistakenly run the reamer in to long, you will have to remove a thread and set the barrel back. Without a lathe, I have no clue how this could be done.

here are some costs associated with your project:

Stiller action $950
select match grade barrel $350
chamber, thread barrel $250
Pillar, glass bed action to stock $250
stock cost ??? $100 to $1500 depending on stock prices today
bottom metal $100 to $350

If you wanted to save some $$$, you could DIY on the stock work . You may or may not need a mill or drill press to custom inlet the stock or drill pillar holes. I could possibly do some of the work myself but it's not worth risking $1,000-2,000 when building something I've never done before. Bedding a $50 Daisy Red Rider is a whole different story as I'd take that risk.

Another thing, If you have a $1,000 action, let a professional do his thing and make it shoot 1 hole groups. If you try to DIY and the rifle/barrel doesn't meet your accuracy expectations, you only have yourself to fall back on b/c you did the job. If a barrel won't shoot, most gunsmiths will fix it till it works to protect their name.

Believe me, I'd love to build my own rifles but just don't have the time, space, or money required to get started. I'd end up spending thousands of $$$$ just to save a few hundred.

if you want to seat bullets long, consult Jerry Stiller to see if the TAC30 or Predator action will allow you to shoot your intended cartridge. You may need to go with the TAC300 longer action for feeding properly.

As far as bottom metal, Stiller makes a BM floor plate that accepts AI magazines. If buying the action from Jerry, buy his BM as well. That way you have no issues on action to BM fitting.

I have 14 Jewells and hunt with all of them. Never had a problem with dirt, dust, and/or reliability in the field. If you ever experience a problem with dust, just flush the trigger housing with lighter fluid and it's clean again. Jewell's give me 100% confidence and saving $75 on a $2000 rifle build is water under the bridge. Buy it once and your done with it.

hope this helps ... If you decide to DIY on the rifle build, I support you . Just not something I wanna do.

[Team Roper]

This x2 ^^^^^^^^^

[txfireguy2003]

Thanks Blake, makes sense to me. I'm just one of those crazy guys that thinks he can do anything, and likes to do things a bit different than everyone else. When i saw that AAC build in .260, using different thickness recoil lugs to set headspace, it got me to thinking maybe I could do the same, problem is the AAC barrels are now only available in 308 and 300blackout as far as i can tell, plus I want more of a hunting styled rifle as opposed to a tactical style rifle for this build. The other reason I want to do it myself is because i have read about the turn around times some smiths have and I'm not that patient! 8 months to a year plus, for something that should only take a few hours? Holy cow, how many people are out there blowing 2k+ on custom rifle builds? Or is it that the smiths aren't working on more than one gun a day? I just can't see it.
Be nice if I could find a gunsmith that would let me come into his shop and help, or at least watch.

[captainsling]

Thanks Blake, makes sense to me. I'm just one of those crazy guys that thinks he can do anything, and likes to do things a bit different than everyone else. When i saw that AAC build in .260, using different thickness recoil lugs to set headspace, it got me to thinking maybe I could do the same, problem is the AAC barrels are now only available in 308 and 300blackout as far as i can tell, plus I want more of a hunting styled rifle as opposed to a tactical style rifle for this build. The other reason I want to do it myself is because i have read about the turn around times some smiths have and I'm not that patient! 8 months to a year plus, for something that should only take a few hours? Holy cow, how many people are out there blowing 2k+ on custom rifle builds? Or is it that the smiths aren't working on more than one gun a day? I just can't see it.
Be nice if I could find a gunsmith that would let me come into his shop and help, or at least watch.

If you are worried about wait times talk to Blake. His smith, Mr. Don, in LA had my 260 built quick. I think it was less than 6 weeks from the time I gave the parts to Blake. Awesome gun and it shoots absolutely amazing. Better than I can , and I am punching 1 hole groups at 100 with no "formal" training. I plan on taking it out when I can find a decent range.

A lot of those smiths that are that far behind are behind simply because they are known for building quality. It doesn't mean there are not just as good or better smiths that are not that busy.

Good luck in your build. It is an exciting time, and even more exciting once you get to enjoy it!

[Cajun Blake]

Thanks Blake, makes sense to me. I'm just one of those crazy guys that thinks he can do anything, and likes to do things a bit different than everyone else. When i saw that AAC build in .260, using different thickness recoil lugs to set headspace, it got me to thinking maybe I could do the same, problem is the AAC barrels are now only available in 308 and 300blackout as far as i can tell, plus I want more of a hunting styled rifle as opposed to a tactical style rifle for this build. The other reason I want to do it myself is because i have read about the turn around times some smiths have and I'm not that patient! 8 months to a year plus, for something that should only take a few hours? Holy cow, how many people are out there blowing 2k+ on custom rifle builds? Or is it that the smiths aren't working on more than one gun a day? I just can't see it.
Be nice if I could find a gunsmith that would let me come into his shop and help, or at least watch.

barrels and contour: b/c I cut my teeth chasing accuracy in benchrest, most of my barrels are a #7 Light Varmint contour. Completed rifles weigh 10.5 - 11 lbs. A #4 or #5 is a very nice profile and just below a Sendero or Varmint Special contour. Rifle will weigh around 8.5 lbs. scoped.

8 mos. to 1 year: the problem is not the gunsmiths, it's the state of the entire industry . Some custom barrel manufacturers have a 1 year lead time. Stock makers are delivering ordered products in 4-7 months.

Several top name gunsmiths have retired from building custom rifles b/c they are fed up with the long lead times on barrel and stock delivery. What was once 3-6 months to build a rifle now takes 9 months to a year. Barrel and stock makers are busier than ever as demand far outweighs the supply.

My gunsmith is so busy he is turning down work. He probably builds 8-10 custom rifles per month . That doesn't include special requests like chamber jobs or pillar bedding rifles. 2 years ago his normal turnaround for my custom work was 2-3 weeks. Now just a chamber job and bedding job is 2-3 months out.

I also know of several big time gunsmiths who are doing less and less individual customer work, and bidding on contract work for government agencies and police departments. The LE agencies have no problem writing a $35,000 check for 10 precision built , tack driving rifles set up with optics and load data. The gunsmith can dedicate his time to building a specific rifle , all with the same setup. Ten individual customers would all have 10 different type of stocks, colors, barrels, contours, calibers, actions, etc ....

Another problem voiced by my gunsmith is customer "Bob" wants a custom deer hunting rifle built. Gunsmith says he can deliver completed rifle in 9 months and takes 50% down payment. GS orders barrel and stock according to Bob's wishes. After 5-6 months, Bob is impatient , cancels his order, and ends up buying a factory built gun. GS is left with barrel and stock that he now has to move, and hopes to recuperate some of his money. .... This scenario doesn't happen often, but 2-3 times a year will leave a bad taste in your mouth .

Personally, I buy all the components myself, and hand deliver them to my smith. That way he doesn't have to order anything. If he has a slow day and waiting on a barrel delivery from UPS, he can possibly squeeze me in and do my chamber job .

any gunsmith will tell you the biggest distraction is telephone always ringing. Some customers call just to ask basic questions and shoot the breeze. If the lathe isn't cutting chips, the GS isn't making money .


Luke, not sure how far away you are from Hempstead , but you might want to call Pete Pieper @ Precision Barrel Works as he is the real deal. A bowhunter who also shots benchrest competition and builds a super accurate rifle. Down to earth and can hook you up with a prompt delivery time.

.

[txfireguy2003]

Thanks Blake. I'll call Pete when the time comes. I guess if I'm going to let a smith do the work, he's about as good as they get from what I've heard. I could also go with a different action that has an integral recoil lug that way (I'm not sure if that's really better, but it seems sound in theory.) I'll definitely be buying all my parts instead of ordering through the gunsmith, as that was the plan all along.

Now on to parts:

Is there any real benefit to an integral lug as opposed to the lug sandwiched between action and barrel? What about floating bolt heads like on a savage, any benefit there other than the ability to swap them out if i decide to go with a different caliber later in life? I found a company selling an action that fits Remington 700 stocks, but has an integral recoil lug (and longer tenon because of it) and floating bolt head, can't remember the name of it though.

Is there any notable difference between barrel makers...Shilen, Brux, Broughton, etc....i know Blake likes Pacnor 3 grooves.....what about the Shilen 4 groove ratchet pattern? Any benefits to them? What about the 5R pattern, cut or button rifled? I hear hammer forged are more durable, but usually not as good for raw accuracy. Or does it all come down to picking a quality barrel manufacturer and hoping you get the best one they made that day?

I may just send in the barrel and action parts and have then put together, then install the trigger and bed the stock myself, just so i can still say i actually did some of the building, but would i notice any real benefit from having a custom ordered stock made over using the Boyds laminate that i already have?

Hell, I'm getting excited just thinking about it and I'm not even ready to start yet! So many options to choose from it's mind numbing!

[Cajun Blake]

an integral recoil lug like on a Surgeon action is nice and convenient for switch barrel guns, but I do not see where it gives you an accuracy advantage over a traditional recoil lug. You also pay more for this specialized machining

most custom rifles are now built with a pinned recoil lug which prevents any movement between the lug, barrel, and action

pretty much all top notch custom barrels will shoot better than the shooter. Matter of personal choice .... Ford v. Chevy v. Dodge , etc....

Some clean up easier than others , just depends on the machining and lapping process done

IMO, PacNor is the best bang for your buck since they're priced less than other major brands and delivery time is one of the best in the industry. PN barrels are very accurate and very easy to clean. Most of my small caliber and varmint hunting friends are running PN barrels with zero complaints.

I've owned and shot the following barrels: Shilen, Krieger, PacNor, Douglas, Bartlein, Lilja, Hart, Lothar Walther, etc... they all shot lights out when I did my part and had the right load developed.

[txfireguy2003]

Thanks again CB. I'm sure I'll be hitting you up again when the time comes.

[Mike D]

Luke sorry I didn't get back to you today but I really can't add anything to what Blake has said.

I agree wholeheartedly with buying all the components you want yourself, then go see your smith of choice with said like of parts.

There are definitely some things you can do yourself as you mentioned. My firsts custom was done exactly this way.

I picked up a McMillan stock from Blake. I am fortunate enough that Jerry Stiller's place is right here near the Metroplex (they really like cash pickup orders BTW) so I drove up there and picked up my receiver. I ordered my barrel blank from Kreiger which was at that time about a 3 month wait, I hear it's about a year now. I took that pile of stuff to my local gunsmith and told him what I wanted. He chambered and threaded my barrel and built me a removeable muzzle brake, assembled the barrel and receiver, pillar and glass bedded my stock, installed my Jewell trigger, and test fired it at the shop.

I brought it home and mounted the rings and scope. My first trip to the range, it shot a 5 shot group at .28" with factory ammo off a bipod and no sand bags. I was blown away. The thought is always in the back of your mind, what if I just invested all of this money in this rifle and it doesn't shoot?

It is addicting I tell ya and it's not cheap. But I can't see myself buying many if any more factory rifles. I am almost finished with my 3rd one.

Good luck, you will have a blast doing it but you just have to be patient through the process.

[Hill1970]

Good information.

[KrissmithRBS]

My little brother is a GS at Shilen !!!!!!! & the ratchet 4 is my fav. I have 1 in 22. Ruger bull he gave me for x-mas , I,ll shoot your eye out!!!! Remember this!Shilen schooled the spanish barrel {makers}on bores!!!!! won't part with my 22. for love or $ .