copper hollow point bullets

[bm22]

what are your thoughts on all copper hollowpoints? I am looking for some good .45 hollowpoints and I know golddot is the gold standard in self defense bullets. but it looks like these barnes all copper bullets expand better, retain 100% of their weight and penetrate farther. Is this marketing or is there some truth to their claims.

If not what is the best Hollow-point to use in a .45. I have an idea that it is probably a ford/Chevy argument and any reputable brand is as good as any other.

Thanks

[txfireguy2003]

I'm no expert by any means, I carry what I'm issued, which has been gold dot until this year, when I got some Winchester pdx1. Again, I'm no expert, but here is my opinion:

I want adequate penetration and expansion, but i don't want over-penetration. My thoughts are, off my bullet penetrates enough to hit a vital organ, that's all I need. I don't want my bullets to come out the back of my target and hit an innocent bystander. I don't know if these solid copper bullets would do that or not, but gold dots have been the proven standard for years.

[BBReezen]

I'm no expert by any means, I carry what I'm issued, which has been gold dot until this year, when I got some Winchester pdx1. Again, I'm no expert, but here is my opinion:

I want adequate penetration and expansion, but i don't want over-penetration. My thoughts are, off my bullet penetrates enough to hit a vital organ, that's all I need. I don't want my bullets to come out the back of my target and hit an innocent bystander. I don't know if these solid copper bullets would do that or not, but gold dots have been the proven standard for years.

I have gold dots in my 40 and 45. I have always heard speers were top notch so that's what I have, also because they were all gander or academy had. I've wanted some Barnes, they look wicked with that huge deep hole in the end. I bought some 357 mag the other day that were Winchester Razorbacks. More of a gimmick but they were at a good price are loaded with Barnes. I've had good luck with their TSX bullets out of rifles so I figure they should be good in handguns as well.

[westtexducks]

I keep winchester whitebox in my .40, no clue if they are the best or not, but I wouldn't want to be shot by them. I have shot the all copper barnes tsx out of a rossi circuit judge 45 colt and DRTed a doe season before last. I was very impressed with them.

[txfireguy2003]

I keep winchester whitebox in my .40, no clue if they are the best or not, but I wouldn't want to be shot by them. I have shot the all copper barnes tsx out of a rossi circuit judge 45 colt and DRTed a doe season before last. I was very impressed with them.

I know .45LC can be a bit more powerful than the .45ACP, although some loadings are roughly equivalent, but what about the penetration on that doe? did the bullet come out the other side? What was the range of the shot? Just curious. I honestly want my defensive handgun rounds to stay in my target if I every have to use them. Of course, I hope I never HAVE to buy another box of defensive rounds, (I don't mind buying them, but I sure don't want to NEED them because I used the last ones.), but if I ever get forced to use them, I would prefer that I didn't end up with a bullet flying wildly downrange after completely penetrating my attacker, possibly hitting someone else.

[westtexducks]

I know .45LC can be a bit more powerful than the .45ACP, although some loadings are roughly equivalent, but what about the penetration on that doe? did the bullet come out the other side? What was the range of the shot? Just curious. I honestly want my defensive handgun rounds to stay in my target if I every have to use them. Of course, I hope I never HAVE to buy another box of defensive rounds, (I don't mind buying them, but I sure don't want to NEED them because I used the last ones.), but if I ever get forced to use them, I would prefer that I didn't end up with a bullet flying wildly downrange after completely penetrating my attacker, possibly hitting someone else.

I forgot to mention the .40s are HPs.

As for the doe I thought she was further out and over compensated and I hit her high and got the spine, it went completely through, shot her again in the chest and it also went completely through. This was also out of a 16 inch barrel 45LC carbine, so that might have been the reason. But honestly from what I have seen the barnes penetrate extremely well probably to much for a self defense situation.

[haztech3]

Just my opinion but i carry 6 Glazer Blue
safety slugs in all my guns followed up by Hornady Critical Defense.The Glazers are guaranteed not to over penetrate.They will typically enter the body and explode.I have Milk jug tested them
against Hydro Shoks and the HydroShoks blew a hole threw both sides and the Glazers did not and left fragments of the bullet behind.I also field tested them on 2 hogs that were close to 60lbs.Same bullets, much Different results.
The Hydro Shoks killed the pig but left a Big Nasty exit hole.The Glazers never exited and after cutting the pig open the internals were ALL LIQUID......Both pigs were shot with the same 40 Cal.handgun at 7 yds.As for the Critical Defense its what i could find at the time, and after the shooting starts and i go threw 6 rds hopefully everyone else will have excited the AO.
I also load the Glazer in 223 in my Mini 14 followed by Barnes TSX for home defense.It isn't supposed to penetrate a standard wall.The Glazers are essentially Copper coated Claymore's.
What you are getting from Glazers is 100% energy deposited into the attacker as opposed to who knows what if the bullet over penetrates and exits the body.

[txfireguy2003]

Chris, i think I have a few glasers laying around the house in .40. I don't own a 40 anymore. If i can find them, there yours if you want them.

[Mike D]

There's a penetration standard for a reason.

And IMO you aren't going to instantly kill someone with the non existent shock/knockdown power of a handgun round so I want them leaking out of as many holes as I can.

[bboswell]

Just my opinion but i carry 6 Glazer Blue
safety slugs in all my guns followed up by Hornady Critical Defense.The Glazers are guaranteed not to over penetrate.They will typically enter the body and explode.I have Milk jug tested them
against Hydro Shoks and the HydroShoks blew a hole threw both sides and the Glazers did not and left fragments of the bullet behind.I also field tested them on 2 hogs that were close to 60lbs.Same bullets, much Different results.
The Hydro Shoks killed the pig but left a Big Nasty exit hole.The Glazers never exited and after cutting the pig open the internals were ALL LIQUID......Both pigs were shot with the same 40 Cal.handgun at 7 yds.As for the Critical Defense its what i could find at the time, and after the shooting starts and i go threw 6 rds hopefully everyone else will have excited the AO.
I also load the Glazer in 223 in my Mini 14 followed by Barnes TSX for home defense.It isn't supposed to penetrate a standard wall.The Glazers are essentially Copper coated Claymore's.
What you are getting from Glazers is 100% energy deposited into the attacker as opposed to who knows what if the bullet over penetrates and exits the body.

I understand your thoughts but what happens when Bad Guy has a heavy coat on? Do you get enough penetration?

Gold Dots fill my magazines in 9mm, .40' & .45

[txfireguy2003]

There's a penetration standard for a reason.

And IMO you aren't going to instantly kill someone with the non existent shock/knockdown power of a handgun round so I want them leaking out of as many holes as I can.

I agree with you Mike, but honestly, I don't care if that leakage is internal or external. Just because you may not see blood pouring out, doesn't mean he's not bleeding. In fact, a bleed into the chest cavity could be fatal faster than bleeding out, as it can interfere with breathing. The Glasers make a.whole bunch of holes, just really small ones. If you're not familiar with them, they are basically a hollow point bullet jacket, with a bird shot "core". As they fragment, they lose energy and won't exit the target. It's not about energy transfer with handguns, I agree, but for me, it is about not hitting someone else after passing through my intended target.

[haztech3]

I understand your thoughts but what happens when Bad Guy has a heavy coat on? Do you get enough penetration?

Gold Dots fill my magazines in 9mm, .40' & .45

bboswell you have a valid point.And my answer with out sounding like a Smart Butt is to shoot faster. to get to the Critical Defense.
No actually in the colder months i switch to the Silver Glazers.They are designed to penetrate deeper threw cloths.In my haste i forgot to add that.

[haztech3]

There's a penetration standard for a reason.

And IMO you aren't going to instantly kill someone with the non existent shock/knockdown power of a handgun round so I want them leaking out of as many holes as I can.

Mike D i totally agree with you're opinion and in 98% of you're post you are Spot on brother.However after People have sued Mc Donalds for getting burned with HOT coffee the word Liability has become an extreme issue.The pistol for me is only a tool to fight to get to my shotgun/rifle or get my Keester in gear and get the F out of the AO.However in that process i don't want an over penetration and take out an innocent bystander and end up charged with Murder 1.The Glazers supposedly are guaranteed not to make 2 holes, an in and out cause they practically explode in to body cavity turning internals into jelly like the live test on the piggie in my earlier post.
Personally i would love to just carry Critical Defense or Critical Duty cause i worry about under penetration but not willing to push the envelope just yet....and Hopefully i never have to do a Live test on Human.
But as always you do bring up the Good points to light bud

[Mike D]

Mike D i totally agree with you're opinion and in 98% of you're post you are Spot on brother.However after People have sued Mc Donalds for getting burned with HOT coffee the word Liability has become an extreme issue.The pistol for me is only a tool to fight to get to my shotgun/rifle or get my Keester in gear and get the F out of the AO.However in that process i don't want an over penetration and take out an innocent bystander and end up charged with Murder 1.The Glazers supposedly are guaranteed not to make 2 holes, an in and out cause they practically explode in to body cavity turning internals into jelly like the live test on the piggie in my earlier post.
Personally i would love to just carry Critical Defense or Critical Duty cause i worry about under penetration but not willing to push the envelope just yet....and Hopefully i never have to do a Live test on Human.
But a always you do being the Good points to life bud

I appreciate your opinion but a couple of things to consider:

1) the Glaser slugs are designed for rapid, shallow penetration. On a large suspect or as shown in the scenario above with a heavy coat, you are not going to get sufficient penetration. Without sufficient penetration you are not going to stop the threat, especially on a determined individual. There are many documented cases of police officers getting in shoot out where the perp takes many rounds that should be fatal and keeps on coming. I know of one article in officer.com (I think) where an officer got into a gunfight and fired every single round he had available in his Glock 22 40 caliber, with the perp taking 22 confirmed torso hit before expiring. When toxicology reports were released there was nothing found in his bloodstream, he was just determined that today was going to be the day he tried to win a gun battle with the cops.

2) As to the over penetration issue, when a quality hollow point bullet is fired into soft tissue and it does its intended job, it will lose most of its energy in the target. Any residual energy that is remaining is doubtful that it would be enough to do any significant damage to bystanders, especially considering energy loss and full expansion. Of course there could be flukes where they don't expand but I a good bullet I would say that is far from the norm. Truthfully you are more likely to hit an innocent bystander by missing your intended target than from a bullet passing through a body.

One the end for me, I choose to carry a bullet that has been proven to be effective weather than a boutique round that may be less effective. I'll take my chances with a jury of 12 rather than be carries by six pallbearers.

Oh, and don't get caught up in the hype of the Critical Defense rounds either. It's a great design theory but for whatever reason they chose to go light for caliber in those and they have shown to provide inadequate penetration as well. The Critical Duty rounds have shown to be a much better choice.

YMMV.

[bm22]

I am not as afraid of shooting through a suspect and hitting someone else as i am about missing and striking someone else. In that case the only solution is to be sure of whats on the other side of your target. I have seen a bunch of gun fight videos. On thing they all had in common. About 10-20 rounds fired and only 1-2 hits. But in the event of a hit i want good penetration. Even the best penetrating hollowpoint only gets 15 -20 inches of penetration it seems.

I was wonder how well the copper opens up, in my mind if it opens up bigger than a normal hollowpoint and still penetrates 15 inches i am golden.

Even the largest 9mm hp opens to .5-.6 inches in diameter. The best .45 hp i have seen opens to .8-.9 inches which means a .45 will make a 60-80% larger hole.