Lightroom vs Photoshop

[Bill M]

I would like to take an unofficial poll of who uses what unless Casey or another admin wants to set up an official one. I'm curious what you use and why. I know there are a number here that use LR. I had the chance to be taught a little about it from Cameron when he was here at college but we never hooked up to do that. My fault, not his.

I've used PS for several years now and I do primarily because I started with Elements. My FIL let me know when the beta for LR was released back in 2007 I believe it was but I never really got interested. I did buy LR 3 a few years ago and when I built a new computer late last year never put it on because I don't use it. After reading some recent comments here I decided yesterday to install it. I had the update to 3.6 so I did that too. I then looked around the net for a comparison, not tuts. After reading a couple of comparison articles I decided to open some files and give it a whirl.

One thing I never cared for was the cataloging that LR wants to do but I took files that had already been downloaded using Bridge. I like the PS Bridge application for this. I use my own system for organizing my stuff. I can say I do like the RAW controls in LR without having to open a separate window like PS does. That is convenient though I'm not sure my newest body is actually supported. (Will have to explore this deeper) LR was actually more intuitive after reading the comparisons than going through tuts. I didn't get into the watermarking or batch processing features of LR yet but will explore at some point.

What LR doesn't have that have become useful to me is the use of selection tools, layering tools, masking tools, etc. I'm am far from being any kind of expert using these but learn more and more all the time. Though I don't batch process I have gotten pretty quick at my workflow with PS. I'm not sure that alot of my photography lends itself to batch because of changes in the direction of light in much of my stuff. Indoor shots of folks would more so than outdoors for me I believe. That opinion may change the more I explore LR.

I will continue to play with LR as I have time and possibly develop a usable workflow using both where necessary. I shoot RAW and jpeg combined but honestly have used the RAW development much less since switching to Canon from Olympus.

I'd be interested in a good discussion on this. I think it would benefit anyone using one or both.

Last thing, I'm stuck at PS5 as I'm not interested in subscription software. If I can develop a usefulness of LR for myself I'll by all means upgrade there. Sorry for being so long winded.

[scotty]

I have both Photoshop5 and Lightroom3. I use Lightroom 98% of the time.

[Shane]

Just like Scott, I use both Lr5 and Ps Elements 9. I use Lr about 99.9% of the time. Whenever I want to use layers or fine selection tools or something I'll use Elements, but that isn't very often. Lr5 is a pretty nice upgrade from Lr3. There are a few more tools that earlier versions didn't have, and many of the common older tools are new and improved in Lr5. Lr4 sucked for me. It was ridiculously slow, and that was a very common complaint for that version. Some people had no problem at all with it, but many people (like me) found it almost unusable due to the slowness. And it didn't seem to matter what your computer system was either. Adobe never admitted that their software was the problem, but it was. I uninstalled it and went back to Lr3.

Lr5 is fantastic. Worth the money for sure, IMO.

As far as cataloging goes, you can organize your files however you want to. It's very flexible.

For me, the workflow in Lr is much more user-friendly than Ps. Batch editing is the bomb once you get it figured out. My workflow goes like this....

1. Shoot in RAW only, using auto white balance in camera. I prefer that because once you get into Lr you can change the white balance very easily, BUT one of the options for WB settings in Lr is "As Shot". As Shot returns the WB to whatever the camera picked for WB. If you set your camera to Daylight WB or any other the other specific settings, you have those same default settings in Lr. So you don't gain anything really. But letting your camera pick a custom WB setting in Auto WB gives you the option to use your camera's brain in Lr when you return the WB to "As Shot". Lr also has an Auto WB that it will apply to your pics, if you ask it to. I've found that Lr's Auto WB and my camera's Auto WB settings are never exactly the same. Sometimes they're pretty different, in fact. Anyhow, that's a long description of why to shoot auto WB in camera. Short answer...one more option in Lr.

2. Import pics from camera into Lr. Here is where a lot of things happen.....

a. Decide which pics you want to import into Lr and have stored on your hard drive (I use externals) and which pics are obvious culls (taking a quick 1st pass look at thumbnails).

b. Decide what folder to store your pics in on your hard drive. Categorized by year/date? Categorized by subject? Categorized by some other system you prefer?

c. Name your files. Use filename from camera? Give them a custom filename to reflect the subject of your shoot? I typically use a custom filename along with the file number from the camera.

d. Apply metadata. You can set your camera to add lots of metadata, copyright, your name and address, etc... You can set presets in Lr to do even more than your camera allows you to do if you want to. Once you have a preset setup in Lr, you just set it to be applied to the batch in the import dialogue box. It'll be there next time, so you don't have to do anything at all as long as you want to use the same preset. You can have more than one if you like, and then you can pick the one you want to use for a particular set of pics.

e. **BIGGIE** Apply a preset for develop settings to the batch. Obviously you will need different adjustment settings for different shoots. You'll need more noise reduction for high ISO situations, maybe more contrast for flat light situations, different white balance settings for different types of light, etc. At first, you won't have your own presets. But every time you process a photo you will have an opportunity to save your custom settings as a preset. Do that every time you process a photo in a new situation. I have presets for daytime sports, nighttime sports, indoor sports, landscapes, flash, all purpose (generic starting place).... If you are importing a batch of pics that one of your presets will be good for, or at least will be a close starting place for, then select that in the import dialogue. If you don't have a develop settings preset to use, then don't worry about it. Just select "default" and import the pics.

f. It can take a long time to import a few hundred pics, if you have that many to do. I do a lot of sports, and I'll have 250-500 pics per game to import usually. I set Lr to build 1:1 previews and smart previews as well. That adds a lot of time to the import process, but it saves time in the editing/cropping process. I typically start an import when I get home from a game and just leave it overnight while I sleep. If it take a couple hours to import and build previews on a few hundred files, that's fine. If I'm in a hurry to process just a handful of pics, I'll turn off the preview building functions.

3. Once the pics are imported and you're ready to edit them, then go to the Develop module in Lr. If your preset settings work for all pics, then you just need to sort through them to cull any rejects and maybe crop the keepers individually (as needed). Lots of times though, I'll have a shoot where the light wasn't the same from start to finish. The preset settings are still helpful as a starting place, but I'll need to make a few tweaks to groups of pics among the whole batch as the light changes. I'll find the first pic of a series of "new light" and edit that one to my liking. Then I'll select all the pics that have similar light and Sync the settings from my custom edited photo to all the pics I have selected. Batch editing again. In a nighttime football game that starts just before sundown, I'll usually have 3-5 different types of light (translating to different WB and other settings) and even that many different ISO settings (translating to different noise reduction settings). But rather than having to apply settings to 400 individual pics, I edit maybe 4 or 5 pics and then apply those 4 or 5 different settings to the groups of pics that are similar to them. All I need to do then is crop and level the pics that need it (individually). That part takes the most time for me. It makes you get better at framing pics in camera. You don't get much time to eyeball your composition during the action of a football game. But I have gotten better at framing and leveling in camera more instinctively as I shoot. I don't really think about it much as I'm concentrating on following the action, but I've noticed that I don't have to crop and level as much as I used to.

4. When you have all your pics adjusted to your liking, then you export them. I export to JPEG, and I store the JPEGs in a separate subfolder within the parent folder of the original RAW files. There are plugins that will allow you to export directly to Flickr or SmugMug or facebook as well. I prefer to export JPEGs to my harddrive, and then I'll upload to SmugMug and/or facebook from there.

Working on large numbers of pics all at once is where the batch processing stuff in Lr really pays off. But I still prefer Lr to Ps for editing an individual photo, as long as I don't need to use layers or do intensive editing where you really need to alter what is in your photo. For those situations, Ps works better. The adjustments that you use for 99% of your photos in Ps are available in Lr as well, but they're laid out in a much more user-friendly way. Many of those tools are the exact same thing that Ps has. Some work a little differently in Lr, and I typically prefer the Lr version whenever there is a difference. Mostly I just like Lr's layout better than the menu method that Ps uses.

There's a learning curve, of course. You will like Lr better after you've used it long enough to get comfortable with it. It's easier to learn than Ps, I think. You still need Ps or at least Elements for the occasional heavy editing.

[Bill M]

I have both Photoshop5 and Lightroom3. I use Lightroom 98% of the time.

Scotty have you ever used PS Bridge at all?

Alot to take in there Shane. One thing I can see as an advantage is the batch processing, no doubt about that. More later.

[Shane]

Yeah, that was a long post. It's much easier to demonstrate in person than describe in a post.

[scotty]

Lightroom vs Photoshop

My workflow is almost identical to Shane's. The main difference is I shoot sports in JPEG. I want the faster fps that JPEG gives me. Everything else is RAW.

No, I've never used bridge Bill.

I'll post my workflow when I get home.

[rvd]

I sure appreciate y'all sharing as much as you do. I've started getting a little more serious about photography and have learned a lot from you fellas. I'm making the move to lr this week, sure to have questions to follow. Thanks again

[Shane]

My workflow is almost identical to Shane's. The main difference is I shoot sports in JPEG. I want the faster fps that JPEG gives me. Everything else is RAW.

No, I've never used bridge Bill.

I'll post my workflow when I get home.

I actually try to avoid holding the button down and firing off a fast series of pics. I try to time the action and take one shot as much as possible. I have enough pics to sort through, cull and process already.

But there are always a couple of plays where I miss the best moment in the action and wish I'd hit the motor drive. Everything is a trade-off.

[Snakelover]

I use Lightroom, but not Photoshop. I use PS Elements for avatars and such things, but do all my photography processing in Lr.

Very good post, Shane. I'm doing many of the things you mentioned. One thing I need to be much better at is something I don't think you mentioned... keywords. I get real lazy in this area and know I don't use them to their potential. I want to set up some custom keyword sets. I think that will really help, especially with family photos...

[ame="http://vimeo.com/71939036"]Using A Custom Keyword Set For Family Photos in Adobe Photoshop Lightroom on Vimeo[/ame]



I don't export into my Lr catalog, I export into subfolders of a directory called "Lightroom Exports." This is in an effort to limit how much I have to backup. I figure as long as I have the Lr catalog, I can always remake the exports, so I don't want to take up space with them in the backups. My Lr catalog goes on it's own 1 Tb internal drive and is backed up on two 1 Tb separate externals, which I rotate weekly, keeping one off site. The idea is even if our house was destroyed, I'd still only lose one week of photos.

My directory system is a folder for each year and then subfolders beginning with date, then subject. I list the year before the month for sorting purposes. Example: 14_10_18_Pumpkinfest means pics taken on October 18, 2014 at Pumpkinfest. I think it's important to put quite a bit of thought into how you want to organize and then stick with your system. The combination of date and subject, makes it relatively easy for me to find something. I use the same system for both RAW and jpg exports.

I got a lot of good info on organization and initial setup of Lr from a book called "The Photoshop Lightroom Workbook; Workflow not Workslow in Lightroom." It helped me a bunch. But I still feel like I'm using only a tiny piece of Lightroom's potential and that I have so much to learn. So I'll be very interested in following this thread and getting some fresh ideas.

[Shane]

I used keywords when I first got Lr (version 2, maybe). I stopped messing with it, as I found that I never wanted to go back and find pics for this or that. I have all the keepers uploaded to my SmugMug galleries, and I go there to find old pics. But it is a cool function. I know Russell Graves uses that a lot. When marketing photos, if you have a client that is looking for a photo of a certain subject, then searching keywords for that would be awesome.

I don't export to my Lr catalog either. I just export JPEGs to a folder on my hard drive.

[Brian10]

I use Lightroom around 95% of the time. Since I'm mainly just touching up photos, Lightroom gets the job done faster when you need to run through a thousand pictures. I break out Photoshop whenever a selection needs to be made and I'm either compositing or really fine tuning an image.

[Bill M]

Welcome to the discussion rvd and Brian.

I'm going to have to play with it some more. I am able to apply metadata using Bridge so that isn't unique to LR. Many of the commands, sliders or whatever you want to label them are the same as PS from what I have seen so far so that makes it easier for me to get around in LR. I know it took over opening in place of Bridge when I put a card in the card reader. I need to see if I can overcome that for the time being. I download as mentioned using Bridge. In the process I convert RAW to a dng file though it will not do it for the 70D RAW files (not supported). It converts the 60D RAW files fine. It has me set a location to download to and that is when I create a folder with subject and date. My main folder is the year. It also asks if I want to set up a back up location which I do to a different HD.

That's all for now. I hope we can keep this discussion going to possibly provide help and/or tips on either of the programs.

[Casey]

Lightroom for me. I used to do a lot in photoshop but have gotten away from it and I think I'm getting better overall results.

I love the import functionality LR gives me as well as the export. I have several presets set up for exporting that include:
Full Size JPEGS
Print 8x10 (I have one for all various popular print sizes)
Web 800 with watermark
Web 800 (no watermark)
Web 1200 with watermark
Web 1200 (no watermark)
Instagram
Flickr
HD Video (for timelapse stuff)

I really get a lot out of the export functionality. I have these set up to resize, sharpen a little, move to specific folders, etc. If you look on my hard drive, I'll have a folder named for the event/date and then a "web", "instagram", "flickr", and "print" subfolder depending on how I've exported. It's just so slick to export 200 pics to the flickr folder, walk away, then upload to flickr. I do this to a separate flickr account for my son's soccer team.

[WyoBull]

I use LR5 exclusively. They have made a lot of upgrades to it since first coming out and I don't really need anything outside of what LR5 can do for me.
The trap I see a lot of people fall into with any of the post processing software programs, and a trap I have been in many times over the years, is post processing a photo so much it does not look natural. A lot of times I will ask my wife to look at a photo after I have processed it to get a reality check and there have been many times that she sees things that I don't because I am too immersed in it.

[Bill M]

Thanks for the additional information. I have been using LR a bit this past week. Anything out of the 70D has to go through a dng converter for working on RAW since I'm at 3.6. I see this most useful for going through a bunch of shots like you guys process. The beginning sequence is still a bit confusing to me but I'm going to continue to use it until I get the hang of it. The actual processing is not a big deal as I said before as many of the sliders are the same as PS. I don't see myself using LR exclusively though. I like to use the selection tools when necessary. I do think I did a batch process yesterday though. What is the actual process called? I think I used a sync button once I had adjusted the sliders where I wanted them. I selected all the photos I wanted to apply the settings to and hit the sync button. Is that how it's done?

Thanks for the continued discussion.

Here's an example of using a selection tool to brighten the eyes. Everything was fine but the eyes were a little dark so I wanted to bring the level up sightly on just the eyes. The end result is how the girls actually look.


Grandgirls by Bill_in_Texas, on Flickr