is it Genetics or is it food ?

[roadkill54]

On my friends STX place it is an absolute jungle (albeit dry now). No daytime activity its all at nite right now!

Its powder dry out west now. It will be interesting to see what our surveys show.

[unclefish]

Here are some random thoughts as to why I think there are certain areas that traditionally grow big deer.

It is well known fact that increasing the nitrogen availability to a crop also increases the protein content of that plant substantially.

If you look at the traditional areas that grow giant antlered bucks (STX and the Midwest are probably the two best known areas).....the Midwest is one of the most heavily fertilized areas in the world. Lots of crops that require nitrogen (wheat and corn require heavy N). They are rotated with alternating crops of soybeans (which produce it's own own N naturally.) The point is lots of fertile soil that has massive amounts of N added every year.

Now for STX...before cattle arrived in Texas via Mexico most all of STX from Laredo to Corpus was a vast grassy plain....no mesquite, black brush, huisache, etc...the cattle brought all that in from Mexico. If you look at how the mesquite tree has taken over STX it's phenomenal. Now what is mesquite....a legume that fixes vast amounts of N per acre naturally. This increases the protein content of every plant that grows there. I think it's a correlation that should not be overlooked.

What does this mean? For me it means don't skimp on N in your food plots.

[roadkill54]

Great point...

[Peyton]

is it Genetics or is it food ?

So, have we concluded that you need nutrition (supplemental feed, food plots, soil), age (6-12yrs?) , and genetics to kill big (for your expectations/region) deer?

[TxSportsman]

How is this even a question?

[deer farmer]

This has been a good discussion. I posted this because I thought it would bring up the fact that yr round feeding will improve the Native deer. We do both protein and food plots yr round on my place. Yr round food plotting can be a lot of work, and a lot of feeling good about what you have accomplished. It can be done with little equipment. I've seen it done with push mowers and hand tools here @ TBH's. And you can always improve your plots each yr through liming and fertilizing. UF brings up a good point about fertilization through Nitrogen, both natural (organic) or through the stuff that comes in a sack. As an example on my place when I first started, i would not fertilize all the plots for one reason or another and I watched the deer walk over the non fertilized to get to the fertilized even when to the eye the fields looked the same. The deer new what plants to eat for their best health. We started our feeding program using sack corn and then moving over to protein feeds. It is hit pretty hard at different times of the yr. I do it because I want to but I prefer the food plotting more. It gives me greater pleasure in life. If this thread gets just one more person to start yr round food plotting, it did what I wanted it to do. Thanks to everyone who commented here. If you guys can continue to add your experiences with genetics and or food here please do. I learned more from this after reading all that has been said here.

[d_e_smith]

Burn the plots off if weather allows. We general spread chicken litter on our hay field and deer will spend more time sifting through it looking for something to eat than any of the plots.

[BrandonA]

Here are some random thoughts as to why I think there are certain areas that traditionally grow big deer.

It is well known fact that increasing the nitrogen availability to a crop also increases the protein content of that plant substantially.

If you look at the traditional areas that grow giant antlered bucks (STX and the Midwest are probably the two best known areas).....the Midwest is one of the most heavily fertilized areas in the world. Lots of crops that require nitrogen (wheat and corn require heavy N). They are rotated with alternating crops of soybeans (which produce it's own own N naturally.) The point is lots of fertile soil that has massive amounts of N added every year.

Now for STX...before cattle arrived in Texas via Mexico most all of STX from Laredo to Corpus was a vast grassy plain....no mesquite, black brush, huisache, etc...the cattle brought all that in from Mexico. If you look at how the mesquite tree has taken over STX it's phenomenal. Now what is mesquite....a legume that fixes vast amounts of N per acre naturally. This increases the protein content of every plant that grows there. I think it's a correlation that should not be overlooked.

What does this mean? For me it means don't skimp on N in your food plots.

Very good observation

[roadkill54]

Agreed....

[bukkskin]

Age and the best nutrition possible are going to get you the most out of the deer you have ,Yes.
But I think if those two things being a constant, Genetics can be the most important one of the three.

Think about it, say you owned 10,000 acres in Texas and all the deer on the ranch and within 200 miles in all directions died off from "whatever".

Now, TPWD offers to bring you 200 head to restock.

You can pick from native deer at Canyon Lake(no offense to Canyon lake area hunters or landowners.) or You can get them from one of Brittinghams places in South Texas.

Which deer would you pick to restock with?

To me there is a difference.

It makes little difference if nutrition is poor. Move the brittingham deer to the piney woods where acid soils make poor food for the deer and the brittingham deer you transport in will not show in just one or two generations. According the the Mississipi study that started this thread, the canyon deer you speak of may improve by 35 % in the 2nd generation if nutrition is improved in that area.

Deer Farmer, not trying to argue with you at all . I'm just passing along a little more first hand knowledge.
Back in 2012 I gave one of my smallest yearling bucks (he was a 3 or 4 pointer, can't remember) to my Brother in law. We took him to his dads place in Mountain Home Tx. It is 300 something acres and Hi fenced. He turned into a "Ghost" by the time he was a 3 yr old. He was spotted a time or two with a doe and they said he was a "regular" 8 pt, best they could tell.
This year he is a 4 yr old, so I called my brother in law to see if they had seen him. He said yes, they saw him good, locked on a doe. He thinks he will probably go 170" as a ten point and outweighs any other buck on the place by at least 70lbs.

So, why is this one deer so much bigger than anything else on the place? They all eat the same thing.

[elgato]

Deer Farmer, not trying to argue with you at all . I'm just passing along a little more first hand knowledge.
Back in 2012 I gave one of my smallest yearling bucks (he was a 3 or 4 pointer, can't remember) to my Brother in law. We took him to his dads place in Mountain Home Tx. It is 300 something acres and Hi fenced. He turned into a "Ghost" by the time he was a 3 yr old. He was spotted a time or two with a doe and they said he was a "regular" 8 pt, best they could tell.
This year he is a 4 yr old, so I called my brother in law to see if they had seen him. He said yes, they saw him good, locked on a doe. He thinks he will probably go 170" as a ten point and outweighs any other buck on the place by at least 70lbs.

So, why is this one deer so much bigger than anything else on the place? They all eat the same thing.

THats an interesting observation. A question to ask is about the history of the deer. If born from controlled breeding in a pen then certainly he is going to have a genetic advantage.It's like comparing random circumstance to lightning in a bottle. If he was a free range native genetic buck then of interest is what was the nutritional plane his parents and family tree have been on for generations as compared to the nutritional plane of the deer in the new home? Nutrition improves the bell curve of antler genetics over time.

[gingib]

Genetics
Then food
And then you play the age game.

For me it's in that order.

x2! 100% agree

[jshouse]

THats an interesting observation. A question to ask is about the history of the deer. If born from controlled breeding in a pen then certainly he is going to have a genetic advantage.It's like comparing random circumstance to lightning in a bottle. If he was a free range native genetic buck then of interest is what was the nutritional plane his parents and family tree have been on for generations as compared to the nutritional plane of the deer in the new home? Nutrition improves the bell curve of antler genetics over time.

agreed. you constantly see guys posting that "you cant change the genetics" or that their area doesn't have the genetics to grow big deer...BS. give them food and give them time and they will.

[TxSportsman]

is it Genetics or is it food ?

agreed. you constantly see guys posting that "you cant change the genetics" or that their area doesn't have the genetics to grow big deer...BS. give them food and give them time and they will.

Sounds like a thesis that would need to be defended by decades of relevant studies over a massive population and enormous amounts of "food". And if you are in fact referencing such a study, I would love to see it.

I have a question for you. If you were born a little person (genetic dwarfism) do you believe a steady diet full of protein would eventually enable you to grow to 6'? Or rather, if there was an entire population of little people, that if they had enough food, that the genetic trait would eventually disappear?

Please keep this topic mature and respectful. I am posing a legitimate question and would like a legitimate answer.

I agree a healthy diet produces healthier deer, but I am not so certain that if you had a herd of 6 points, (not yearlings... I'm talking mature fully developed 6's) and never shot any of them, that you would eventually have a heard of 10 pointers by shoving protein down their throats. I believe part of your argument about "food and time" should read more like " food, time, and proper harvest objectives". It's possible that you are seeing an improvement in the heard from food, sure... but all that shooting you do is doing something also... removing unwanted genetics.

[jshouse]

here bud, http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...etting-taller/

using dwarfs is apples and oranges. like using a spike yearling vs. a 8pt yearling in a 6 year antler growing contest.

and you can question the source, just google "average human height over time," there are plenty more.