is it Genetics or is it food ?

[Ptedmonds3]

The Genetic attribute is only effective in certain scenarios. A small HF vs large low fence would be the 2 opposite sides of the spectrum. In some scenarios there is absolutely no way you could alter or assist the genetics. Genetics is a very complicated subject that truthfully I doubt many understand the magnitude of its power. Back to the OP in my opinion the most important of the 3 is AGE then NUTRITION and Lastly Genetics, unless your in a scenario that is more controlable then Genetics would be second.

completely agree!

[jkelbe]

If continued over generations the genetics can be improved vis a vis the epigenetic effect.

After googling Epigenetic, I have a question. So you are basically saying that as a deer's environment is improved, that over generations the deer's hidden genetic code will will start to activate and they will become bigger faster stronger? Just trying to break it down.

[elgato]

After googling Epigenetic, I have a question. So you are basically saying that as a deer's environment is improved, that over generations the deer's hidden genetic code will will start to activate and they will become bigger faster stronger? Just trying to break it down.

Simply...Yes. Not exactly as per explanation but the 'hows' aren't that important. Enough just to understand that deer genetically will respond to the environment. If the environment improves dramatically then markers within the genetic code signal that it is 'safe' to adapt. i.e. get bigger over time and from our interest grow bigger antlers.

An interesting consideration is to think about why deer have historically had bigger racks in some areas than others. Typically in the past the best deer came from the mid west, S. Texas, and areas with great soil. Even in S. Texas there are areas that in the past grew bigger bucks than others. Why? The oversimplified answer is that most of those areas had the best soils, hence higher quality nutrition, hence over time the deer adapted and got bigger. In the mean time, deer from poor soil areas responded to there environment in like kind [ Think of Fla. deer or deer from pine forests.]

Managers are impacting that paradigm now by enhancing the nutritional plane year round and guess what. The bucks are getting bigger.

That is the greatly oversimplified explanation. Other studies discussing the 'maternal effect' have reached the same conclusions. That is by greatly enhancing the nutritional plane of the mothers the fawns respond to the environment more positively than the parents. Generationally the improvements continue. I think they are both saying the same thing.

As you know I always qualify my posts though by reminding that I'm only a red neck from rural La. with no scientific training long on opinions.

[jkelbe]

Cool.
I imagine it's the time commitment that is needed to get the multi generations going, so most people try and skip the line (so to speak) and introduce genetics that above what they have.

[roadkill54]

A very good read So to add to the conversation....

Sutton County
1100 acres high fenced
Combination of cedar ridges and mesquite flats with some STX brush types
Density 1 per 8.6 acres
Population 1B:1.8D

No trophies killed in the last 3 yrs. Targeted bucks are 4+ yrs old and no more than 8 pts. These targeted bucks have not broken the 130 mark yet.

We have the age and are pouring the protein to them (over 40K pounds so far this year).

We have added some genetic does for a jump start. 3rd year of fawns out of the original 7 we started. I estimate we now have over 40 genetic does and maybe 20 bucks.

We have let our largest few natives live till way past mature and then remove the mouth. The youngsters are showing tremendous potential and will be used as breeders. Focus is still to remove native older 8 pts or less.

We are seeing positive results so what's missing
Additional nutrition...... In the prelude I said Sutton County which equates to 20-25 inches of moisture in a good year. We just came out of a four year drought. We have been blessed this spring with consistent large rainfalls. Yes its dry now but we got it when it was needed. So the question becomes how can I add additional green to their diet without a lot of moisture. For example I planted 3 acres of oats in DECEMBER (as a test patch) that's when the rain started. Oats came up, rain continued, deer eat the oats till they dried up in April.

This I really believe is the last piece of the puzzle I need to solve. Does anyone have field experience with deer forage in dry arid areas? What would you recommend as a annual winter crop. Our equipment availability is simplistic at best.

Thoughts

[roadkill54]

Forgot to add that I have had the soil tested and it is relatively good according to the soil test reports. The future food plot areas just need a little phos......

[txwhitetail]

A very good read So to add to the conversation....

Sutton County
1100 acres high fenced
Combination of cedar ridges and mesquite flats with some STX brush types
Density 1 per 8.6 acres
Population 1B:1.8D

No trophies killed in the last 3 yrs. Targeted bucks are 4+ yrs old and no more than 8 pts. These targeted bucks have not broken the 130 mark yet.

We have the age and are pouring the protein to them (over 40K pounds so far this year).

We have added some genetic does for a jump start. 3rd year of fawns out of the original 7 we started. I estimate we now have over 40 genetic does and maybe 20 bucks.

We have let our largest few natives live till way past mature and then remove the mouth. The youngsters are showing tremendous potential and will be used as breeders. Focus is still to remove native older 8 pts or less.

We are seeing positive results so what's missing
Additional nutrition...... In the prelude I said Sutton County which equates to 20-25 inches of moisture in a good year. We just came out of a four year drought. We have been blessed this spring with consistent large rainfalls. Yes its dry now but we got it when it was needed. So the question becomes how can I add additional green to their diet without a lot of moisture. For example I planted 3 acres of oats in DECEMBER (as a test patch) that's when the rain started. Oats came up, rain continued, deer eat the oats till they dried up in April.

This I really believe is the last piece of the puzzle I need to solve. Does anyone have field experience with deer forage in dry arid areas? What would you recommend as a annual winter crop. Our equipment availability is simplistic at best.

Thoughts

You will spend way more on farming than any return you will get there unless you have irrigated fields.

I would stick to the protein and get your numbers down (unless you like feeding a deer to 8 acres). Not sure what your goals are on numbers.

[Capt.Bryan]

A very good read So to add to the conversation....

Sutton County
1100 acres high fenced
Combination of cedar ridges and mesquite flats with some STX brush types
Density 1 per 8.6 acres
Population 1B:1.8D

No trophies killed in the last 3 yrs. Targeted bucks are 4+ yrs old and no more than 8 pts. These targeted bucks have not broken the 130 mark yet.

We have the age and are pouring the protein to them (over 40K pounds so far this year).

We have added some genetic does for a jump start. 3rd year of fawns out of the original 7 we started. I estimate we now have over 40 genetic does and maybe 20 bucks.

We have let our largest few natives live till way past mature and then remove the mouth. The youngsters are showing tremendous potential and will be used as breeders. Focus is still to remove native older 8 pts or less.

We are seeing positive results so what's missing
Additional nutrition...... In the prelude I said Sutton County which equates to 20-25 inches of moisture in a good year. We just came out of a four year drought. We have been blessed this spring with consistent large rainfalls. Yes its dry now but we got it when it was needed. So the question becomes how can I add additional green to their diet without a lot of moisture. For example I planted 3 acres of oats in DECEMBER (as a test patch) that's when the rain started. Oats came up, rain continued, deer eat the oats till they dried up in April.

This I really believe is the last piece of the puzzle I need to solve. Does anyone have field experience with deer forage in dry arid areas? What would you recommend as a annual winter crop. Our equipment availability is simplistic at best.

Thoughts

Forage oats are a good winter/ early fall attractant for deer and provide 10-20% protein, I would suspect in late March and April the nutritional value would begin to degrade as they dry up. You may look into a drought tolerant summer food crop such as Tecomate lablab mixed with sun hemp and clover, it can have protein levels as high as 38% and provides a source for more phosphorus and calcium that is needed in antler growing.

[elgato]

You will spend way more on farming than any return you will get there unless you have irrigated fields.

I would stick to the protein and get your numbers down (unless you like feeding a deer to 8 acres). Not sure what your goals are on numbers.

I agree with this. I spent years trying to master dry land farming in the arid brush country with proper equipment. Finally gave up and only plant where I irrigate. Nothing grows if it doesn't rain and everything grows when it does limiting plot use. Just not practical for most. Pellets always work.

[roadkill54]

Appreciate the feedback.

My immediate goal is to improve the quality of the overall herd and be in position to grow and harvest at least 4 'trophies' a year. The family would interpert anything over 150 as a monster. I realize there will be outliers. Are my desires to lofty - maybe. We have a program in place on the other ranch {STX} and have been successful in harvesting numerous bucks over 150 every year since we got serious about a decade ago. We only do protein during the antler growing. I agree the deer numbers are to high. Our surveys came back a little low last year due to weather at that time. I knew we had more deer than the survey indicated. We harvested all our biologist gave us tags for in '14. Numbers are up more this year, fawns are everywhere now so am expecting an increase in our quota.

The one test plot can be irrigated and I did run a commercial sprinkler when it got dry at times. I easily have a 100 acres of plantable area however am hesitant due to the inconsistent rainfall. I've got 5 H2O wells on the place and have been looking at ways to get water to these areas. My best well is 2500 feet or so from the food plot. I've talked to my well guy and he has a design we are considering. As stated above it might be better to just pour the groceries to them. This brings up another hypothetical question. If we stay with 'protein' what about adding cotton seed during early spring into summer and providing round bales of alfalfa as additional offerings. I still believe our missing link are the "greens". I say this because its been green up to a month or so ago and the overall antlers are better. And yes we do have a few deer which are in the process of 'blowing up' this year.

As another side note its been interesting in keeping the family 'off' of the top bucks. Now into our fourth year they are starting to see why we have focused on the lesser bucks.

[deer farmer]

Roadkill, in the oil patch we have moved water 1+ mile or so from a water well by running 2" fast line from the well to a catch tank (steel tank) but it could be a pond if desired, and then add another pump from the catch tank to the area we needed the water (another 1/2 mile or so). We have been able to move about 65 gpm of water this way. you might be able to buy some older tanks (at a lower cost) at this time due to the slowdown in the oil patch. And I planted sunn hemp this yr for the first time, and I planted it in different soils, one of the soils was red clay along the banks of a pond dam. This type of soil is not good for growing. but the sunn hemp is growing like crazy there with no rain in the last 6 to 8 weeks (seems to like dry soil and dry weather) and the deer on my place have taken to it nicely. And I am moving water 7/10 of a mile with fast line from one of my wells @ 62 gpm

[lovemylegacy]

After googling Epigenetic, I have a question. So you are basically saying that as a deer's environment is improved, that over generations the deer's hidden genetic code will will start to activate and they will become bigger faster stronger? Just trying to break it down.

Yes, I guess you could say a deer is an exact reflection of its environment. Thread lives on...and to think it almost died.

[bgleaton]

I think that the mentality "most people waste their money on protein" is not correct. Yes, age is very important, but I'm a big believer in Elgato's mentality - NUTRITION. A buck will not reach his genetic potential without nutrition. When we purchased our property in Menard county, the biggest buck we got on camera that year was a 120in 10-pointer. There were a lot of bucks, but none of them had impressive antlers. One might have thought that we didn't have the genetics to grow big deer. Since then, we have fed protein for four years and we have seen a dramatic improvement in our bucks. This year, we should have several bucks in the 140 range. This would have never happened if we didn't feed protein. A lot depends on where you are located as well. South Texas has quality native browse whereas the hill country browse is not as nutritious, so it depends on the area you are in. I know for a fact that our deer herd wouldn't be what it is today without supplemental feeding.

[roadkill54]

Oh bg you opened up a conversation piece. I challenged two different state biologists about growing bigger deer in STX. Both of them responded instantaneously I could grow bigger bucks in Sutton County then in STX. THis was four years ago or so and they vehemently claim on an acre to acre ranch you could and can grow bigger deer. Food higher quality in the hill country, age of course and numbers. I find it an interesting discussion piece since we purchased in the western hill country and not STX.(Bosses perspective of not enough oak trees in STX!) Anyway we're here and yr four is showing a major improvement thus far in velvet. Largest matched pair of sheds thus far 155 Gr. with a 17 inch spread. That deer is way down this yr (old) and going on the hit list.
Anyway we'll see. Early cam pic's indicating bucks as big (in velvet) as deer on my friends place down south. I agree with the protein comment. It does make a difference. Based on how fast they just went through the last 10K lbs of protein we need to get the numbers down even more.

[Encinal]

Oh bg you opened up a conversation piece. I challenged two different state biologists about growing bigger deer in STX. Both of them responded instantaneously I could grow bigger bucks in Sutton County then in STX. THis was four years ago or so and they vehemently claim on an acre to acre ranch you could and can grow bigger deer. Food higher quality in the hill country, age of course and numbers. I find it an interesting discussion piece since we purchased in the western hill country and not STX.(Bosses perspective of not enough oak trees in STX!) Anyway we're here and yr four is showing a major improvement thus far in velvet. Largest matched pair of sheds thus far 155 Gr. with a 17 inch spread. That deer is way down this yr (old) and going on the hit list.
Anyway we'll see. Early cam pic's indicating bucks as big (in velvet) as deer on my friends place down south. I agree with the protein comment. It does make a difference. Based on how fast they just went through the last 10K lbs of protein we need to get the numbers down even more.

They said you could grow bigger deer near Sonora than in S Texas?

Really?