is it Genetics or is it food ?

[Encinal]

That is exactly the way I see it also. The herd has been shot down for 50 yrs or so. The last 10 yrs it has probably reversed with deer management, but we have 40 or so years to go to break even

It's less than that... When our original partners first flew the ranch they saw 1 ten pointer... Within 10 years 4 deer over 190 had been killed and 2 others that netted book... Which means within the 4 years after they bought the place... Those deer were born.

[bukkskin]

It's less than that... When our original partners first flew the ranch they saw 1 ten pointer... Within 10 years 4 deer over 190 had been killed and 2 others that netted book... Which means within the 4 years after they bought the place... Those deer were born.

Nice, that's pretty cool. So do you think the ranch was lacking age? nutrition? or both? You obviously have the genetics.

[Encinal]

Predominantly age. At the time, there were no suplements, but the brush was good and set up for growth with rainfall.

[Truckville]

So if I release a buck fawn with 180-200" potential into my current nutritional situation which is producing 115-125" mature bucks eating the same thing they eat he will not show his antler potential and end up somewhere close to where they do? Based on what
I see in this thread my mature 4-6yr old bucks are only making 115-125" because my place has inadequate nutrition.

[Encinal]

He's be less than 200 in sub-optimal conditions... But he wouldn't be 125.

[bukkskin]

So if I release a buck fawn with 180-200" potential into my current nutritional situation which is producing 115-125" mature bucks eating the same thing they eat he will not show his antler potential and end up somewhere close to where they do? Based on what
I see in this thread my mature 4-6yr old bucks are only making 115-125" because my place has inadequate nutrition.

I know that nutrition has a huge impact on weight and antler development, and I believe the 35% in the study.
Here is a "Personal" example of why I believe "genetics" is so important and that all herds are not equal under the same conditions.

In 2012 I had to move my whole herd. I had to sell my 2 yr old bucks because I didn't have a pen ready for them in time. I had a bottle raised "pet" that I named "Pip-squeak". Now me and pipsqueek was buddys, so I wanted him protected. So, I called a hunting friend of mine who happens to live in Pipe Creek also. He has about 75 acres of high fence that he raises axis and blackbuck, it also has some native whitetails.
My friend said, "yeah bring him on, He can die of old age here"
So I load up and off me and pipsqueek go for Pipe Creek. Now you all know how bad the drought was then. I pull in and it looks like 75 acres of concrete with oak trees and cedar sticking out of it. I was worried, but I was in a bind. So I dropped the tailgate on my little truck, opened the door on my little plywood box and pipsqueak jumps out. He hits the ground on his feet, stops and eats the last remaining blade of grass on the place and walks off.
My friend calls me every week and says he hasn't seen him. He feeds the deer every evening behind his house. That's it, no protein feeders in the pasture and no native browse left.

Two months go by and he finally calls and says " hey pipsqueak is standing here with the other deer and he don't look too good". I said "well throw some alfalfa out, he probably hadn't eaten since he got there".
He finally recovers from skin and bones after he finds the "only feed" on the place. It was touch and go, we thought he would die.

That year he was poor(2013), antlers and all, although he was a very nice typical ten when I dropped him off (2012).
In 2014, friend calls and says "hey you need to come check out "Squeek". That's what he calls him. Tells me that he is "LEAPS and BOUNDS" over any other deer on his place and that he would be proud to shoot him in Mexico.

I stop by and check him out, nice big framed typical 11. All the other bucks are typical 8 pts, maybe one 9 pt. But, none of them come within 40 inches of ol "squeek". They all eat the same thing, which isn't much mind you. So why is this one deer so much bigger than the rest under the same conditions??
I have a pretty good idea myself.

I am not discounting nutrition at all. I would love to be able to plant food plots where I hunt. If they would grow, we would have a bunch of shooters instead of borderline shooters I'm sure

[d_e_smith]

So if I release a buck fawn with 180-200" potential into my current nutritional situation which is producing 115-125" mature bucks eating the same thing they eat he will not show his antler potential and end up somewhere close to where they do? Based on what
I see in this thread my mature 4-6yr old bucks are only making 115-125" because my place has inadequate nutrition.

Is it pine? Old rice farms?

[Truckville]

Is it pine? Old rice farms?

Old rice farm and hardwoods, some pine.

[d_e_smith]

Pines wouldn't be much of an issue then, nutrient leaching from flooding the fields over the years could be though.

[deer farmer]

There were Wisconsin, STX and KS deer brought to the pines. You can really tell where those genetics got a foothold around where the old cotton farmers annihilated the native herd, certain govt agencies do things to provide nutrients for the soil and produce a better quality browse and the deer can express those genetics.

D E, u r right about this. In 1943 the TP&W brought in these bigger Northern deer into two spots in Texas. San Antonio area and across the road from me in Harrison Co. And again in 1961 the TP&W brought them in again, and they monitored this herd until 2008. Most people don't know that most all of the deer in Texas came from these two herds brought in. We older guys remember the 1960's where we never saw any deer in Texas.

[Truckville]

I know that nutrition has a huge impact on weight and antler development, and I believe the 35% in the study.
Here is a "Personal" example of why I believe "genetics" is so important and that all herds are not equal under the same conditions.

In 2012 I had to move my whole herd. I had to sell my 2 yr old bucks because I didn't have a pen ready for them in time. I had a bottle raised "pet" that I named "Pip-squeak". Now me and pipsqueek was buddys, so I wanted him protected. So, I called a hunting friend of mine who happens to live in Pipe Creek also. He has about 75 acres of high fence that he raises axis and blackbuck, it also has some native whitetails.
My friend said, "yeah bring him on, He can die of old age here"
So I load up and off me and pipsqueek go for Pipe Creek. Now you all know how bad the drought was then. I pull in and it looks like 75 acres of concrete with oak trees and cedar sticking out of it. I was worried, but I was in a bind. So I dropped the tailgate on my little truck, opened the door on my little plywood box and pipsqueak jumps out. He hits the ground on his feet, stops and eats the last remaining blade of grass on the place and walks off.
My friend calls me every week and says he hasn't seen him. He feeds the deer every evening behind his house. That's it, no protein feeders in the pasture and no native browse left.

Two months go by and he finally calls and says " hey pipsqueak is standing here with the other deer and he don't look too good". I said "well throw some alfalfa out, he probably hadn't eaten since he got there".
He finally recovers from skin and bones after he finds the "only feed" on the place. It was touch and go, we thought he would die.

That year he was poor(2013), antlers and all, although he was a very nice typical ten when I dropped him off (2012).
In 2014, friend calls and says "hey you need to come check out "Squeek". That's what he calls him. Tells me that he is "LEAPS and BOUNDS" over any other deer on his place and that he would be proud to shoot him in Mexico.

I stop by and check him out, nice big framed typical 11. All the other bucks are typical 8 pts, maybe one 9 pt. But, none of them come within 40 inches of ol "squeek". They all eat the same thing, which isn't much mind you. So why is this one deer so much bigger than the rest under the same conditions??
I have a pretty good idea myself.

I am not discounting nutrition at all. I would love to be able to plant food plots where I hunt. If they would grow, we would have a bunch of shooters instead of borderline shooters I'm sure

Thanks for the Pip-Squeak story. I thought about ole "Squeak" a couple times this weekend when I was out on the ranch.

[Truckville]

So if I release a buck fawn with 180-200" potential into my current nutritional situation which is producing 115-125" mature bucks eating the same thing they eat he will not show his antler potential and end up somewhere close to where they do? Based on what
I see in this thread my mature 4-6yr old bucks are only making 115-125" because my place has inadequate nutrition.

He's be less than 200 in sub-optimal conditions... But he wouldn't be 125.

Pines wouldn't be much of an issue then, nutrient leaching from flooding the fields over the years could be though.

I know the answer to my question already because I released 5 buck fawns with that potential in my free range environment. Of the 5, 3 stuck around and survived to 4.5 yrs old. They ate at the same feeders and food plots as the natives and pushed 145-160 @3.5 (145 being 10" bigger than the biggest native ever killed on ranch) and 170-190 @ 4.5. Two of them locked up and died at 4.5.

One of the reasons I did this experiment was to find out if there was something wrong with my ground or my nutrition program that was keeping me from growing bigger bucks.

Now 9 years after starting my expensive nutrition quest to improve my native herd, the natives are no bigger antlerwise than they were when I started. I have more 10 points than I've ever had and very healthy deer, but the top end scores have not increased much, maybe 5%. I may just be in the Bermuda triangle of deer management, but I want people to know that putting in the time, money, population and age management is no guarantee of 25-35% antler increases. The Genetics leg of the 3 leg stool can really hurt even with generational nutrition.

That being said I hope my place is the exception and Elgato's is the rule.

[d_e_smith]

Could be something there. Could also show the importance of early development of deer (fetal/nursing). Surely they sired something that would be a big improvement over the native genetics.

[Truckville]

Could be something there. Could also show the importance of early development of deer (fetal/nursing). Surely they sired something that would be a big improvement over the native genetics.

Hopefully we have some young half-n-half free rangers running around the ranch now. Only time will tell what the genetic cross can produce. Based on herd history a 140-150 would almost have to be a genetic cross. If we have any bucks like that in the next few years I will try to confirm its from one of my release sires or not with a DNA test. I know genetics it a touchy subject on here, but I don't regret buying deer. Knowing that bucks like these can grow on my place keeps me going when I probably would have given up.

[popup_menace]

Just to throw a screw in the gears here, how many of you guys can definitively say the genetics of your does are compatible with your desired outcome? Not being a smartie or anything, I'm just saying that the mothers genetics play into antler growth as well. So, if feed is abundant and there are does with bad genetics breeding and dropping fawns, those fawns may not reach the same potential as a fawn with great genetics from both mother and father.


All this stuff is kind of confusing to me, but I'm beginning to see how the controllable variables tend to point themselves out to us and all we can do is hope for the best beyond that