Arrow penatration problems

[Saltgrass Mikerr]

"If arrow is flying straight and true with a sharp broadhead, you really cant go wrong WITH a good shot"

and with that ----- I'm going to go practice

[enewman]

If you look at the info posted on Alaska Bowhunter dot com, there are some key design elements that aid in penetration.

Here are some of them the top of my head as I understand them.
Smooth transition from broadhead to ferrule to arrow shaft.
The diameter of the broadhead should be larger or equal to the diameter of the ferrule.
The diameter of the arrow shaft should no larger than the diameter of the ferrule.

The Grizzly Stik arrow design was inspired by Dr Ashby's study.
It's a tapered design. The nock end being smaller.

So with all that bring said.
The benefits, less drag, using a small diameter arrow make sense.
But that's only part of the total package

Not total package is. T.A.P. ( total arrow performance).

[cbd10pt]

Yes the broad head does come in effect. I could write two pages on arrow penetration. My post was about lite arrows. Not what type of broadhead.

So since your brought that up lets talk a little about heads. The best head is a thick head around .72 thick. And a two blade. This head will be hard to beat. A long head that's built like a sliver will also be hard to beat for penatration.

Now will all broadheads work yes. A lot of heads are a market gimmick. Not that they don't work but it's all about the sale.

It's like the new magnus. It's nice and thick but the penetration is hinderd do to it's a short wide head. That is restriction.

It's kind of like the head that cuts three circles can't remember what it's call. Will that head kill yes. But it's a gimmick design.

The head that has the helical blades. There whole sale point is it helps steer the arrow. What. We spend all our time to make an arrow that is steered by the fletching, and here comes this head. Sales gimmick. Does it kill yes.

All this post is my opinion on why people have some penetration problems.
I should have added that. A good arrow is not just the shaft. It's tip to knoc. So if you shoot junk heads. It makes no differance how good the arrow is.

So I'm thinking we need to interduce a new term. T.A.P. Total arrow performance. This is muddyfuzzy he gets all the glammer for that term.

Your original post mentioned the broadhead, and honestly I believe the head effects penetration far more than any other aspect related to this topic.
if you want to blow through a shoulder you do not want a long slow tapered blade, to be the first thing that impacts bone. I have seen Magnus stingers fold over on bone.
a hollow ground steel or titanium tip is what blows through shoulders.
you are correct when it comes to further penetration it is good to have the blades sweep back at a slow pitch.
I never understood why they quit making the Rocky Mountain titanium 3 blade that was probably one of the best 3 blade heads ever produced.

[Buff]

Im a big fan of heavy arrows, even out of low poundage bows.
I have had countless examples of folks shooting light weight arrows bounce off hogs,here at the farm.
We had a fellow this weekend shooting a 70 pound compound that claimed his arrow bounced off. He was shooting a expandable head and when I inspected it, there was a little hair on the head but no sign that it had even broke the skin.

I understand the need for speed, I have no hope for it with my Trad bows so I dont give it much thought. Most folks woulde be better off with a 600 grain set up and a little less speed but I don't expect many folks will trade their speed for penetration.

As far as heads go, it is a trade off of damage verses penatration.
I shoot deer with a 1-7/8 head and big stuff with a 1" head.
The 1" head will shoot through most any thing but leaves a poor blood trail.
The big head leaves a great trail but lacks penetration

[Buff]

This is a 1-1/8" GK head that was shot from a 84# recurve.
The 980 grain arrow passed through a Water Buffalo breaking a rib going in and sticking in the off side rib so deep we could not pull it out

[hoyt21]

This is a 1-1/8" GK head that was shot from a 84# recurve.
The 980 grain arrow passed through a Water Buffalo breaking a rib going in and sticking in the off side rib so deep we could not pull it out

[ATTACH]685957[/ATTACH]

Buff that is awesome. I long slender broadhead will penetrate better than a short fat broadhead. Because the broahead starts opening with the tip like stabbing with a knife

[enewman]

Your original post mentioned the broadhead, and honestly I believe the head effects penetration far more than any other aspect related to this topic.
if you want to blow through a shoulder you do not want a long slow tapered blade, to be the first thing that impacts bone. I have seen Magnus stingers fold over on bone.
a hollow ground steel or titanium tip is what blows through shoulders.
you are correct when it comes to further penetration it is good to have the blades sweep back at a slow pitch.
I never understood why they quit making the Rocky Mountain titanium 3 blade that was probably one of the best 3 blade heads ever produced.

I've seen the same with magnus heads. They use 420 stainless. It's a good metal but it is soft. Plus the head is to thin for bone.

I killed a lot of animals with stingers. But I bent a bunch to.

[enewman]

Thanks for the post buff.

I don't talk a whole lot about broadheads. I have shot my far share. But the best head I've shot for me was the 225 gn strickland helix. I like the design and the single bevel cut.

The Zwickey im shooting now is 1 3/8 x 2 9/16

[enewman]

I'm guessing by some of the post I should have talked about T.A.P. ( total arrow performance) HAHA I told you muddy I'm going to turn that into an everyday use.

The post was mainly just to understand that just because you have enough ke does not mean you will get the penatration you are looking for. The term k.e. Needs to go away and use momentum.

The problem I'm seeing is I should have added a few things. Broadheads. Do to yes even if you have that magic number ashby claims .57 if your head is a bad design then you still will not get the penetration you need.

I think buff having his ranch and having hunters could really have some good thoughts on this. I'm betting he has seen some heads that perform great and some that should be thrown away.

[BrianW]

Great post, I would love to learn more about momentum and FOC of an arrow, but I don't understand the physics part. So with that being put out there, Where can I go learn about this at my pace??

[enewman]

Great post, I would love to learn more about momentum and FOC of an arrow, but I don't understand the physics part. So with that being put out there, Where can I go learn about this at my pace??

look up dr ashby. You will find all you want to know about what your asking.

Including mechanical advantage of a broadhead. That almost no one talks about.

I would like to mention this. I believe in high foc. But do not get stuck on that is gospel.

There are a lot of game taken every year with arrows no where close to being what you are about to read on. But there are a lot of advantages to an high foc arrow with momentum and a good mechanical advantage fixed broadhead. This is called T.A.P. HEHE

[muddyfuzzy]

Great post, I would love to learn more about momentum and FOC of an arrow, but I don't understand the physics part. So with that being put out there, Where can I go learn about this at my pace??

The reading of the study and subsequent articles can be pretty cumbersome but is very insightful. There are video from a lecture he conducted some years back that hit more in the high point a for a general overview.

http://www.tuffhead.com/education/education_links.html

[CastAndBlast]

Tagged to read later….good stuff so far

[Gummi Bear]

How much difference do you think the small diameter arrow versus the standard diameter makes? Any testing to verify?

Almost none.

It is pure marketing hype. The funny thing, is that what is now touted as 'reduced diameter' arrows, are what the first carbon arrows looked like when they first hit the market in the early 90's. I tried them then, and was not at all impressed. I went back to my trusty old 2115's.

I still have some old Browning/Beman arrows from back then. They had outserts just like new ones and everything.



For the last few years, I've been shooting carbon arrows. Mostly Easton, Beman and most recently from Carbon Express. They have done a good job, and my hunting arrow is right around the 400gr mark.

I am working on a new set of arrows, tenatively, it looks like they will tip the scales at around 620gr. That has about 215gr in the front of the arrow (100gr broadhead, insert, weight) I am wanting to use the same broadhead I have been using for a few years now and am very happy with, Slick Trick Magnum.

I expect these to fly out of my bow in the 215-220fps range (my 400gr arrow cruises along at 275-280). I want to sink them deep into the shoulder of some of the huge boars that like to frequent my lease. It rips right through deer and other light skinned game like nothing.



Speed is not really all that necessary, I've killed loads of critters with bows that won't make it to 200fps. Trad guys fill the freezer all day, every day with heavy arrows and slow bows.

[JAGR]

I got the speed bug and was shooting 385 grain arrows. Bottom line: the penetration sucked. I will never again shoot an arrow under 420 grains.

Thanks for the info. Good post.