High FOC Vs Total Arrow Weight

[Kirby86]

I haven't been able to find a definite answer to this, so here goes.

Which will penetrate better?

A higher weight, lower Foc arrow (8-9%) (500-550gr?)

or

a lower overall weight, Extreme FOC arrow (15-20%) (400gr?)

Only decent comparison I could think of in this would be if you took a VAP with the stainless steel insert (Higher FOC) and compared it vs possibly an Easton FMJ (lower FOC).

The only thing I've found even remotely close to dealing with this is the Ashby report with the 54lb EFOC arrow beating an 82lb bow with standard arrows in penetration. Anyone ever messed with this?

[Fergeris]

Interested as well

[TxAg]

One thing to consider is that with a heavy FOC arrow you have the front weight "pulling" the arrow through. With a low FOC arrow, the shaft will "flex" more upon impact because more weight is distributed evenly across the arrow versus at the front of the arrow. That shaft flex can impede penetration.

On the other hand, the heavier arrow will have quite a bit more momentum...and momentum is a very good thing.

As for your example,....I dunno. Sounds like a fun experiment to try.

Now days, seems like there are so many ways to make up an arrow, there's no reason you cant have both.

[ItsLeo]

It's critical that spine is tuned correctly to get full benefit of the higher FOC arrow.

I use two groups of animals shot with the same bow different arrows as an example.

First group

455 gr Arrow (full size vanes) 100gr head 73lb bow

Duiker: Pass through 100gr Montec (small antelope about 45lbs)
Warthog: Leg bone stopped arrow, 100gr Montec wounded lost
Impala: 25 inches of penetration, 100gr Sidewinder, slightly quartering too me.
Kudu: 25 inches of penetration, 100gr Montec, slightly quartering away, BAD broadhead deflection almost 90 degrees, caught liver, retrieved next morning.

After reviewing the video I had I determined that a heavier broadhead would probably have saved me the aggravation of deflection.

Second Group

SAME BOW AS FIRST GROUP

420 gr arrow (Blazers), 125 gr head, Bow set at 67.5lbs after broadhead tuning.

Pronghorn Antelope: Pass thru 125gr Rocket Stricknine 48yard shot.
Nyala: Pass thru 125gr Slicktrick Standard
Bushbuck: Pass thru 125gr Slicktrick Standard
Eland: Pass thru 125gr Slicktrick Standard
Whitetail: Pass thru 125gr Slicktrick Standard
Oryx: Pass thru 125gr Slicktrick Standard

Not much difference in the total weight of these two arrows BUT I am definitely getting much better performance out of the slightly lighter arrow with the higher FOC. And a LOWER draw weight on the same bow. I'm convinced that turning down the draw weight slightly to account for the heavier head reducing spine was the right thing to do. When I broadhead tune I do not touch the rest to adjust for left or right impacts. I only turn the draw weight up or down. I find this gives you the most consistent results for the full range and it doesn't mess up you paper tuning.

[enewman]

I have played a lot with arrows, and heavy foc. I have not had a chance to shoot something big yet to see how well it works

Getting close to the 20 % your arrow is going to be close to the 450 to 500 on average.

You will have to be critical on spine. If your going to try close to 20 % or more your going to be close to that 250 gn plus up front.

This is how I do it wright or wrong it works for me.

First. Pick a arrow. I used gold tip velocity 300 spine. Then installed a 100 gn insert. Buy a assortment of field points. 100 to 300 gn. Make sure you have two arrows unfletched

Second. Find center shot. I cut a short piece of arrow so it dose not pass the riser. Then I measure to find where the cam sets from the limb. I run a string of that center mark across front of bow and center the arrow. Then level the arrow with 90 knock.

Third. Put the weight close to what you want for the foc your looking for. Now shoot a couple of fletched arrows. Now shoot a bare shaft. Don't worry if left or right of fletched yet. If bare shaft is above or below adjust knock point till fletched and bare shafts are at same level.

Fourth. If bare shaft is left its stiff. If right it's week. DO NOT ADJUST REST FOR LEFT OR RIGHT. Adjust tip weight or draw weight to arrows are in same group. Once you have this you now have the correct spine arrow.

Now it's time to tune rest. This is best done with a walk back method. Remember you need to try to have the best shooting form. Try not to torque the bow, and if tired stop and rest. When shooting bare shafts form and torque can cause problems.

I have built a 29 % foc arrow. It was 657 gn. It shot 231 fps and I could still get a 80 to 90 yard shot with it. That arrow had 400'gns upfront. I like to stay in the low 500 range and I can get around 23 % foc with that arrow

If you like to tinker with your bow. You will learn a lot doing this.

[sambo73]

Good thread

[Slick8]

Dang and I was happy with 14.3 FOC but that's from a fairly light arrow, 381 grains.

At 14.3, 76 for KE and .507 Mom I'll do fine with our local deer and hogs. Not to mention it holds and awesome group with the 125 Ramcats out to 50 yards which is well beyond what I'd shoot a deer at.

Good thread, lots to think about.

[Mudslinger]

Accuracy and forgiveness also come with a higher FOC. Personally, for most everything in NA, anything will work as long as everything is tuned and shoots well, the BH is sharp and the arrow is placed in the right spot. When you encounter bone, a heavier arrow will probably be better and even more so with a high FOC. it will be hard for me to go away from my 560 grain arrow with 19% FOC at 270 fps, but a 700+ arrow is in the works with near 25% FOC for a Cape Buffalo hunt in 2015.

[bphillips]

Accuracy and forgiveness also come with a higher FOC. Personally, for most everything in NA, anything will work as long as everything is tuned and shoots well, the BH is sharp and the arrow is placed in the right spot. When you encounter bone, a heavier arrow will probably be better and even more so with a high FOC. it will be hard for me to go away from my 560 grain arrow with 19% FOC at 270 fps, but a 700+ arrow is in the works with near 25% FOC for a Cape Buffalo hunt in 2015.

You still gonna use the same bow?

[Kirby86]

This interested me because as I type this, I have a 250 spine VAP in one hand, and a DCA SD hunter in the other... Vaps lighter with higher FOC, and the DCA is heavier overall.

Decisions, decisions!

[enewman]

If the vap is spines correctly go that way depending on your draw and what bow the 250 spine arrow is going to take a lot of up front weight to get the dynamic spine correct

[Mudslinger]

Same bow. 2009 HCA Speed Pro 29" @70#'s. Has not let me down since I bought it new. Just put new strings and cables on it.

[Csmith52779]

I am shooting a 390 grain arrow with a 42 brass insert and it's not super gains but I have been crushing bones with it and I wasn't able to do it before the brass

[hogdaddy]

Hi

my name is Barney and I'm addicted to FOC. I see no down side, only good things both in flight and penetration if all parts of the system are working together.

[muddyfuzzy]

It's critical that spine is tuned correctly to get full benefit of the higher FOC arrow.

I use two groups of animals shot with the same bow different arrows as an example.

First group

455 gr Arrow (full size vanes) 100gr head 73lb bow

Duiker: Pass through 100gr Montec (small antelope about 45lbs)
Warthog: Leg bone stopped arrow, 100gr Montec wounded lost
Impala: 25 inches of penetration, 100gr Sidewinder, slightly quartering too me.
Kudu: 25 inches of penetration, 100gr Montec, slightly quartering away, BAD broadhead deflection almost 90 degrees, caught liver, retrieved next morning.

After reviewing the video I had I determined that a heavier broadhead would probably have saved me the aggravation of deflection.

Second Group

SAME BOW AS FIRST GROUP

420 gr arrow (Blazers), 125 gr head, Bow set at 67.5lbs after broadhead tuning.

Pronghorn Antelope: Pass thru 125gr Rocket Stricknine 48yard shot.
Nyala: Pass thru 125gr Slicktrick Standard
Bushbuck: Pass thru 125gr Slicktrick Standard
Eland: Pass thru 125gr Slicktrick Standard
Whitetail: Pass thru 125gr Slicktrick Standard
Oryx: Pass thru 125gr Slicktrick Standard

Not much difference in the total weight of these two arrows BUT I am definitely getting much better performance out of the slightly lighter arrow with the higher FOC. And a LOWER draw weight on the same bow. I'm convinced that turning down the draw weight slightly to account for the heavier head reducing spine was the right thing to do. When I broadhead tune I do not touch the rest to adjust for left or right impacts. I only turn the draw weight up or down. I find this gives you the most consistent results for the full range and it doesn't mess up you paper tuning.

I have to disagree with the interpretation of your results, here is why:
1. there is little to no difference between your arrow weights
2. a net increase of +/- 25 grains up front or on the nock will only net about a 1-2% increase-decrease in foc
3. you changed heads with different mechanical advantages thus impacting penetration in what is widely considered to be one of the most heavily weighted variables in the formula

while you have studied the data I feel there is no real correlation between the perceived increase in foc (which is fairly insignificant) vs the change in arrow weight. I think what you have here is a classic example of a hunter finding confidence in a set-up that has worked, not to mention a better penetrating head in the slick trick. don't forget the vast majority of 4-blade heads have a higher MA than their 3-bladed counterparts.

I shoot a 350 spine black eagle deep impact that has a 420 finished weight and produces an foc of 18%. I also shoot 125 grain slick trick magnum; however, when I need absolute penetration I opt for a 2-blade single to do the job. I am from the ashby school, I believe it has merit and also agree the head design plays a much more important role in than the incremental gains 1-3% foc or a 50 increase in arrow weight nets.

you are on the right track, but I don't think you are quite there yet. my arrow started out at 12% foc. I went up in tip weight, ditched vanes in lieu of feathers and have cut the arrow down a 1/2" here and a 1/4" there to build foc. this allowed me to stiffen up the spine without turning the bow down at the sacrifice of speed. I have done about as much as I can with it and am very happy with the results.