Definition of Murder

[westtexducks]

So apparently in the last oh I don't know 4-6 years the definition of murder has drastically changed from what it used to be. I would love to be filled in on its new definition so I can start properly using it again.

Here is the old definition in case anyone can't remember it.

mur·der

noun
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
"the stabbing murder of an off-Broadway producer"
verb
kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation.

[Ironman]

So apparently in the last oh I don't know 4-6 years the definition of murder has drastically changed from what it used to be. I would love to be filled in on its new definition so I can start properly using it again.

Here is the old definition in case anyone can't remember it.

mur·der

noun
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
"the stabbing murder of an off-Broadway producer"
verb
kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation.

Correction. That would be premeditated murder.

[RiverRat1]

Example of murder..

If you have a shotgun and I run at you (and you do not shoot while being charged) then I grab the gun and start punching you in the face trying to take it...If you pull the trigger either intentionally or unintentionally...= murder

Or

If any white guy for any reason kills and black guy = murder

[Ironman]

Example of murder..

If you have a shotgun and I run at you (and you do not shoot while being charged) then I grab the gun and start punching you in the face trying to take it...If you pull the trigger either intentionally or unintentionally...= murder

Or

If any white guy for any reason kills and black guy = murder

Look up race baiting idiot.

[tvc184]

So apparently in the last oh I don't know 4-6 years the definition of murder has drastically changed from what it used to be. I would love to be filled in on its new definition so I can start properly using it again.

Here is the old definition in case anyone can't remember it.

mur·der

noun
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
"the stabbing murder of an off-Broadway producer"
verb
kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation.

What changes are you talking about?

Some of the problem may be looking at dictionary definitions which in law are concepts only. Laws are generally statutory meaning they have been enacted into law. At times the dictionary is completely off base in reference to law.

The Texas Penal Code in Murder hasn’t changed in many years except adding an intentional felony act that accidentally causes a death. Like a person if fleeing from an armed robbery in a vehicle, runs a stop sign and kills someone.

Another example is premeditation. Texas Law hasn’t mentioned premeditation since at least the 1970s yet you have a dictionary definition that shows it. That is the difference between law and a dictionary general concept.

When teaching the Penal Code at the academy we give them the rules of definitions. There are 4 places to find what a word or phrase means and it must be done in this specific order. First you look in the actual section and it might say, “in this section” so it only splits to that one narrow law. If not there you look usually at the first of that chapter and it will say, “in this chapter” so that word or phrase means the same throughout that chapter. If not there, you look at Section 1.07 of the PC which is definitions that apply throughout all Texas laws unless otherwise noted... even codes besides the PC. In a way the PC is somewhat the master code as far as definitions and penalties.

Lastly and if no specific definition is written into the law.... you look in the dictionary. For most legal definitions or meanings, the dictionary is the last place you want to look.

Toss is.... the USA is 50 separate and generally autonomous countries. As such, what one state uses for a law might be completely different than the others. In the news media we might see a Murder and the story blasted that state’s law. Then two days later another high profile case hits the news and we see something different. No, the laws or definitions didn’t change, the location did.

As an example, Texas law on Murder is to intentionally or knowingly take s person’s life. In California it says that Murder is to take a life with “malice aforethought”. Texas mentions neither malice nor aforethought.

[Landrover]

What changes are you talking about?

Some of the problem may be looking at dictionary definitions which in law are concepts only. Laws are generally statutory meaning they have been enacted into law. At times the dictionary is completely off base in reference to law.

The Texas Penal Code in Murder hasn’t changed in many years except adding an intentional felony act that accidentally causes a death. Like a person if fleeing from an armed robbery in a vehicle, runs a stop sign and kills someone.

Another example is premeditation. Texas Law hasn’t mentioned premeditation since at least the 1970s yet you have a dictionary definition that shows it. That is the difference between law and a dictionary general concept.

When teaching the Penal Code at the academy we give them the rules of definitions. There are 4 places to find what a word or phrase means and it must be done in this specific order. First you look in the actual section and it might say, “in this section” so it only splits to that one narrow law. If not there you look usually at the first of that chapter and it will say, “in this chapter” so that word or phrase means the same throughout that chapter. If not there, you look at Section 1.07 of the PC which is definitions that apply throughout all Texas laws unless otherwise noted... even codes besides the PC. In a way the PC is somewhat the master code as far as definitions and penalties.

Lastly and if no specific definition is written into the law.... you look in the dictionary. For most legal definitions or meanings, the dictionary is the last place you want to look.

Toss is.... the USA is 50 separate and generally autonomous countries. As such, what one state uses for a law might be completely different than the others. In the news media we might see a Murder and the story blasted that state’s law. Then two days later another high profile case hits the news and we see something different. No, the laws or definitions didn’t change, the location did.

As an example, Texas law on Murder is to intentionally or knowingly take s person’s life. In California it says that Murder is to take a life with “malice aforethought”. Texas mentions neither malice nor aforethought.

Lmaoooooo……….thanks for adding real value!

[Charles]

What changes are you talking about?

Some of the problem may be looking at dictionary definitions which in law are concepts only. Laws are generally statutory meaning they have been enacted into law. At times the dictionary is completely off base in reference to law.

The Texas Penal Code in Murder hasn’t changed in many years except adding an intentional felony act that accidentally causes a death. Like a person if fleeing from an armed robbery in a vehicle, runs a stop sign and kills someone.

Another example is premeditation. Texas Law hasn’t mentioned premeditation since at least the 1970s yet you have a dictionary definition that shows it. That is the difference between law and a dictionary general concept.

When teaching the Penal Code at the academy we give them the rules of definitions. There are 4 places to find what a word or phrase means and it must be done in this specific order. First you look in the actual section and it might say, “in this section” so it only splits to that one narrow law. If not there you look usually at the first of that chapter and it will say, “in this chapter” so that word or phrase means the same throughout that chapter. If not there, you look at Section 1.07 of the PC which is definitions that apply throughout all Texas laws unless otherwise noted... even codes besides the PC. In a way the PC is somewhat the master code as far as definitions and penalties.

Lastly and if no specific definition is written into the law.... you look in the dictionary. For most legal definitions or meanings, the dictionary is the last place you want to look.

Toss is.... the USA is 50 separate and generally autonomous countries. As such, what one state uses for a law might be completely different than the others. In the news media we might see a Murder and the story blasted that state’s law. Then two days later another high profile case hits the news and we see something different. No, the laws or definitions didn’t change, the location did.

As an example, Texas law on Murder is to intentionally or knowingly take s person’s life. In California it says that Murder is to take a life with “malice aforethought”. Texas mentions neither malice nor aforethought.

Once again, Thank You for taking the time and effort to share actual facts.

[glen]

Murder can have a lot of definitions as stated above. Talking about the Minn. case that will be determined by actual cause of death. Then they will look at training. If he was trained to control a subject in that matter it will change things. If really interested look up- Prone Handcuffing and Control and watch. I have no idea on any of the above training etc in the Minn case so I don’t really have an opinion

I know departments that probably have 25 year vets that the only control/handcuffing they have had is when they were rookies. Doesn’t make it right but it is what it is.

Without a doubt what happened in Minn is a tragedy- A man lost his life- that will remain the same no matter the outcome. If

[Rush2Judge]

Lmaoooooo……….thanks for adding real value!

I agree with yours and the previous two posts.

[westtexducks]

What changes are you talking about?

Some of the problem may be looking at dictionary definitions which in law are concepts only. Laws are generally statutory meaning they have been enacted into law. At times the dictionary is completely off base in reference to law.

The Texas Penal Code in Murder hasn’t changed in many years except adding an intentional felony act that accidentally causes a death. Like a person if fleeing from an armed robbery in a vehicle, runs a stop sign and kills someone.

Another example is premeditation. Texas Law hasn’t mentioned premeditation since at least the 1970s yet you have a dictionary definition that shows it. That is the difference between law and a dictionary general concept.

When teaching the Penal Code at the academy we give them the rules of definitions. There are 4 places to find what a word or phrase means and it must be done in this specific order. First you look in the actual section and it might say, “in this section” so it only splits to that one narrow law. If not there you look usually at the first of that chapter and it will say, “in this chapter” so that word or phrase means the same throughout that chapter. If not there, you look at Section 1.07 of the PC which is definitions that apply throughout all Texas laws unless otherwise noted... even codes besides the PC. In a way the PC is somewhat the master code as far as definitions and penalties.

Lastly and if no specific definition is written into the law.... you look in the dictionary. For most legal definitions or meanings, the dictionary is the last place you want to look.

Toss is.... the USA is 50 separate and generally autonomous countries. As such, what one state uses for a law might be completely different than the others. In the news media we might see a Murder and the story blasted that state’s law. Then two days later another high profile case hits the news and we see something different. No, the laws or definitions didn’t change, the location did.

As an example, Texas law on Murder is to intentionally or knowingly take s person’s life. In California it says that Murder is to take a life with “malice aforethought”. Texas mentions neither malice nor aforethought.

So isn't intent about the same as premeditation? And this is exactly my point, even by your penal definition of the word murder the only one today that has used it correctly was Chew for his in line of duty deaths post which was my point. Seems the media and half of this site love to use the word murder for the sensation even though by no meaning of the word penal or websters does it fit.

For sake of normal discussion regardless of law I still think ole websters is still a good source of words definitions. And in either case the word Murder sure gets thrown around a lot around here and elsewhere when it clearly doesn't fit the definition either legally or by the dictionary.

[westtexducks]

Lmaoooooo……….thanks for adding real value!

Whats is funny about this is he proved my point on what the definition of murder is. Intentionally or knowingly killing some one or in the act of committing a felony to kill someone else either willfully or on accident.

So by definition George up in Milwaukee was not murdered, the Arbery fellow, was not murdered. Ole Travon from several years ago, not murdered. Half of the murders in the news these days, aren't murders but sure makes for an eye grabbing and sensational headline.

[LWC]

So isn't intent about the same as premeditation? So if he didn't knowingly or intentionally kill the guy is it murder? My point still stands. White guy kills black dude no matter the circumstance it instantly becomes murder no matter what. Got it. For sake of normal discussion regardless of law I still think ole websters is still a good source of words definitions. And in either case the work Murder sure gets thrown around a lot around here and elsewhere when it clearly doesn't fit the definition either legally or by the dictionary.

What if he clubbed the guy in the back of the head while he is handcuffed and he dies from that? But the LE didn't intend to kill him. Is that murder or oops, I just hit him a little too hard?

[tvc184]

So isn't intent about the same as premeditation? And this is exactly my point, even by your penal definition of the word murder the only one today that has used it correctly was Chew for his in line of duty deaths post which was my point. Seems the media and half of this site love to use the word murder for the sensation even though by no meaning of the word penal or websters does it fit.

For sake of normal discussion regardless of law I still think ole websters is still a good source of words definitions. And in either case the word Murder sure gets thrown around a lot around here and elsewhere when it clearly doesn't fit the definition either legally or by the dictionary.

In Texas, if you had no intent to kill someone but were angry and in a sudden moment rage, fired a shot and killed someone, I guess you could say there was half of one second of premeditation. Texas goes by intent, not if you planned it.

In your OP you questioned if the definition has changed. The answer in most places is no. People’s discussions and opinions change. The law rarely changes.

When discussing a hot topic like in some recent incidents, it is somewhat meaningless look up dictionary definitions. That is because an actual situation can only be judged by the applicable law.

If you remember the Joe Horn incident where he shot and killed two men burglarizing the neighbor’s home... in daylight... when the neighbors didn’t ask him to watch their home... and after they had left the house..

There was a lot of national news coverage and I watched an “expert” on CNN say, it is not legal anywhere to shoot someone just to recover property. A lawyer on the panel stated ... uhhhh, not in Texas.

Therein lies the reason that if you are talking about a particular case and not some general notion, you have to know the law that applies and general concepts, while maybe interesting, many times have no bearing on the discussion whatsoever.

[tvc184]

What if he clubbed the guy in the back of the head while he is handcuffed and he dies from that? But the LE didn't intend to kill him. Is that murder or oops, I just hit him a little too hard?

Texas law actually says intentionally or knowingly. The definition of knowingly is that you should have known the likely result. Do you can’t shoot a guy in the chest and if he dies have the defense, it isn’t Murder because my intent was just to seriously injure him. Yes but the question to the jury is, should a reasonable person know that shooting a person in the chest can likely in death. It basically closes a legal loophole.

For a jury in his scenario, the decision would be, did the officer intentionally or even knowingly cause the death. If not, it isn’t Murder. But the same jury could decide that the officer may not have intended the death but he was reckless in the action, that would be Manslaughter and up to 20 years in the hoosegow.

[LWC]

Texas law actually says intentionally or knowingly. The definition of knowingly is that you should have known the likely result. Do you can’t shoot a guy in the chest and if he dies have the defense, it isn’t Murder because my intent was just to seriously injure him. Yes but the question to the jury is, should a reasonable person know that shooting a person in the chest can likely in death. It basically closes a legal loophole.

For a jury in his scenario, the decision would be, did the officer intentionally or even knowingly cause the death. If not, it isn’t Murder. But the same jury could decide that the officer may not have intended the death but he was reckless in the action, that would be Manslaughter and up to 20 years in the hoosegow.

Thanks for your thoughtful insight. It is appreciated.