Passenger forcible removed from flight

[Atfulldraw]

Many missing point: At the root of the issue is whether dead-head United crew heading to Louisville gets to bump paid, boarded, seated passenger. Answer is absolutely not.

It is not industry standard for seated passengers to be involuntarily removed in favor of airline employees. Two ways to get airline employees to Louisville: buy them tickets on another airline or drive. Also, very easy to have raised voucher offer until someone raised their hand to voluntarily give up their seat. Info above provided by a retired career American Airlines employee.

this is so simple.

but yet, so difficult for so many....

[BigL]

Overbooking is a common practice for airlines. This is something that goes even above United on not allowing that practice.

On this incident, the guy is still in the hospital and already has a media director and attorney speaking for him. He's about to get paid!

In China there is a lot of protests about united. They feel this was done because he's Chinese. When in fact their selection process is based on airline status first and then who paid the lowest fare. Even in coach there are lower fares among seats based on when you book your flight. This guy got penalized because he doesn't fly united often and planned further in advance than others.

[qWuARk556]

This is what I'm talking about - Rape and protecting his Children ?

Literally has ZERO to do with this situation.

Use the facts given and reach a reasonable conclusion, it is not difficult.

Actually, the two are linked, even with one being an extreme policy. Why? Because the current policy was enforced to an unreasonable and unforeseeable extreme.

Till this happened I had zero expectation to meet violence on a plane unless my behavior was violent, or extremely disruptive.

For example, look to history. The reason we have OSHA is because employers had policies that led to deaths and injuries. The reason truck drivers are now limited on drive time is because of bad, industry standard, policies.

This current policy is poorly concieved and has been ill-fated.

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[txwhitetail]

Many missing point: At the root of the issue is whether dead-head United crew heading to Louisville gets to bump paid, boarded, seated passenger. Answer is absolutely not.

It is not industry standard for seated passengers to be involuntarily removed in favor of airline employees. Two ways to get airline employees to Louisville: buy them tickets on another airline or drive. Also, very easy to have raised voucher offer until someone raised their hand to voluntarily give up their seat. Info above provided by a retired career American Airlines employee.

Many are missing there are TWO parts here.

1. The airline asking folks to get off plane to seat staff.
and
2. Someone resisting security when asked to leave the plane.

On #1 sure they could have handled that differently for a better outcome.

On #2 the passenger was an idiot that got everything he had coming to him when he resisted.

[qWuARk556]

One thing to also remember about creating policy, law, and rules.

Enforcement is always violent. If you arent willing to enforce "it" with violence, then dont create "it".

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[txwhitetail]

One thing to also remember about creating policy, law, and rules.

Enforcement is always violent. If you arent willing to enforce "it" with violence, then dont create "it".

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Enforcement is only violent when the offender escalates it.

[qWuARk556]

Enforcement is only violent when the offender escalates it.

Not true. Enforcement is always violent because the threat of violence is omnipresent.

Perhaps you are in LE, maybe not, Im not. But, an officer asked me a question during a ride along.

How many calls involve weapons, guns? I said something stupid, like some percentage.

He said, wrong, 100%. Because cops bring weapons to every call.

Enforcement is always violent because the possibility, threat, of violence is always there.

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[txwhitetail]

Your thought process is wrong or your use of the word "violent" is sketchy at best.

[qWuARk556]

Oh, and a side note, I fully support LE carrying weapons. Didnt want some lunk head reading an insinuation that I didnt make.

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[Ironman]

Oh, and a side note, I fully support LE carrying weapons. Didnt want some lunk head reading an insinuation that I didnt make.

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Glad you cleared that up! But you seem to be ok with LE beating up everyone they come in contact with.

[str8shooter]

Enforcement is only violent when the offender escalates it.

BINGO!!

My little sister is a flight attendant for Alaska Airlines. She has to remove people from the plane all the time. Just had to remove 2 on Friday headed to Vegas. She's never been in the news or on the Internet for removing folks from a plane. And yes, she has had to call for help from security more than once. People being removed from airplanes at the gate is more common than many think. For any number of reasons. It only become a problem when the person being removed acts like a dip-wad and doesn't follow instructions.

That being said, this situation could have been handled better.

And let's not forget, we've only seen the last minute or so of this whole ordeal. There is at least 10-20 minutes leading up to the removal that none of us have seen or heard.

So let's all chill-out here. All three parties (doc, UA and the security officers) did their part to escalate this situation beyond where it should have gone.

[BULL21]

Not so much tough but real. The problem is with the bad policy.

Lets compare this incident to shopping in a retail store. It is an industry standard to retain the right to refuse sale to anyone and most have a removal policy.

Now, here you are shopping. Not doing anything wrong at all, and are told to leave. Then, some mall cop tries to force you out. Are you seriously going to just comply? If so, Id say you are incredibly weak. Now, Id probably just leave because eff that store.

However, on a plane, the stakes are higher. There is work, family, etc waiting on your return. Also, what if your kids where there and they tried seperating you by force. What then? Its obvious in the video the airline and the rent a cops werent engaged in meaningful discussion and reason had left the plane. In a similar case, they are going to be listening when you tell them of your kids.

Suppose you comply and they use force anyway. Are you not going to act in protection of your kids?

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First of all, they aren't going to separate you from your kids, but if you do have kids with you, then you all get off the plane. I would hope that you wouldn't act like a jackazz in front of your kid just so they can see how tough you are.

[tradtiger]

Many are missing there are TWO parts here.

1. The airline asking folks to get off plane to seat staff.
and
2. Someone resisting security when asked to leave the plane.

On #1 sure they could have handled that differently for a better outcome.

On #2 the passenger was an idiot that got everything he had coming to him when he resisted.

Okay, you want to talk about the second part?

Airline didn't even follow the law they were basing "enforcement" action upon. They are required to provide written reasons for a passenger being denied a place on a flight. Furthermore, that should have happened BEFORE the passenger was even ON the plane. Since, we want to discuss the more general concept of compliance with authority, consider whether unjust actions require compliance. American Founders didn't think so. Were they in compliance with the Law of the Land as proclaimed by the British Monarch? No. Did they suffer. You bet. An unjust law does not have Authority and, therefore, does not require compliance. (This was the Founders' thinking) Doesn't mean there won't be immediate "pain." Still doesn't make improper enforcement of unjust policy right. And the enforcement was admittedly improper -- as corroborated by the suspension of those officers.

I will be very surprised if there are not sweeping regulatory changes made to airline passenger-rights policies.

[Hydestik]

Not true. Enforcement is always violent because the threat of violence is omnipresent.

Perhaps you are in LE, maybe not, Im not. But, an officer asked me a question during a ride along.

How many calls involve weapons, guns? I said something stupid, like some percentage.

He said, wrong, 100%. Because cops bring weapons to every call.

Enforcement is always violent because the possibility, threat, of violence is always there.

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Just because there's a gun present does not mean there is violence ( this is off-subject by the way) just because law enforcement puts on a gun, they don't shoot a person everyday. The security we're sent to his seat to ask him to get off the plane . He chose not to comply and was removed from the seat. If I had three security guys come to my seat and ask me to leave I wouldn't hang for dear life to the armrest. That is how he sustained his injuries. Yes..... I do believe he will get paid but I don't agree with the circumstances.

[qWuARk556]

First of all, they aren't going to separate you from your kids, but if you do have kids with you, then you all get off the plane. I would hope that you wouldn't act like a jackazz in front of your kid just so they can see how tough you are.

Lol... no, I wouldnt act like an idiot.

But, thats not the concern. At this point one thing is abundantly clear: the airline had stopped listening and stopped being reasonable. Would they seperate families? Im sure they would, because it doesnt happen until it does. Also, its clear to me that had I expressed concern about the seperation, they would not have heard me. Because, they stopped listening.

Now, Id disembark my kids, or at least intend to. But, if Im manhandled, who knows what happens next. Fight or flight is 100% instinct. Perhaps I flop on the ground like a limp noodle. Perhaps I become super violent. Until it happens I wont know. But, I do know fight or flight and adrenalin are seriously unpredictable.

This situation should never have escalated this far, but it did. But, it did. It got violent because of over reach. Something that will keep increasing in pervalance as long as people allow it to.

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