Get ready for Hillary!

[XBowHunter]

Why should the majority of the party abandon many of their principles in order to go along with a minority of voters who aren't willing to abandon theirs?

Conservatives have different views on several issues than libertarians do. They share many of the same views as libertarians as well. Conservatives outnumber libertarians. Neither group wants to abandon its principles, and both groups are equally frustrated with the other in times like these. It goes both ways.

Meanwhile, the Democrat party is made up of a bunch of different groups who have similar and different views as well. They are sometimes equally frustrated with each other, but they do a better job of sticking together somehow.

without libertarians and independents the GOP is not going to beat the democrats

[XBowHunter]

So the GOP should cater to the smaller independent voting base?

if they want a chance at the presidency...

in a word "YES"

[txjustin]

Why should the majority of the party abandon many of their principles in order to go along with a minority of voters who aren't willing to abandon theirs?

Conservatives have different views on several issues than libertarians do. They share many of the same views as libertarians as well. Conservatives outnumber libertarians. Neither group wants to abandon its principles, and both groups are equally frustrated with the other in times like these. It goes both ways.

Meanwhile, the Democrat party is made up of a bunch of different groups who have similar and different views as well. They are sometimes equally frustrated with each other, but they do a better job of sticking together somehow.

Shane, I don't think anyone is saying abandon your principles (I'm not). However, the GOP certainly better reach out to Libertarians and Indys or they won't be winning the Presidency again.

without libertarians and independents the GOP is not going to beat the democrats

This is fact.

[txpitdog]

So the GOP should cater to the smaller independent voting base?

Two things...

If the GOP wants to beat the DNP it's gotta reach out the independents somehow. Otherwise the GOP is not a majority.

Second, not cater to the smaller group or abandon principles but come up with a unifying plan/message of some kind that eliminates or reduces the internal criticism. Moderates are railed against by conservatives. Conservatives are railed against by moderates. Both groups thumb their nose at conservative independents. This is why the GOP loses votes. It has divided itself.

[Shane]

The tough sell that the Libertarians are trying to make is in trying to convince conservative Christians to abandon their opposition for abortion and their support for the definition of marriage being one man and one woman. That's just not gonna happen. Those seem to be 2 of the biggest 3 problems that the (mostly) atheist/agnostic libertarians have with conservatives. The 3rd is legalized pot, and that's a tough sell as well, although maybe not quite as impossible as the other two.

If libertarians are as committed to their views on those three issues as conservatives are, then the argument isn't ever gonna end, unfortunately. Libertarians can band together and vote for their own candidate, which will likely pull just enough votes from the Republican candidate for the Democrat to win. Or Libertarians can vote with the conservatives to make it possible to defeat the Democrat. I know that sucks for the libertarians. But it would suck even more for the conservative majority of the Republican party if they violated their deeply-held beliefs and voted with the Libertarians.

It sucks either way. There's just not much middle ground on a couple of those big issues. It would be great if there were, but I don't see any unfortunately. They're issues where you have to agree to disagree, pretty much.

That's why I've asked libertarians if those issues are the most important issues in deciding on a candidate or not. If so, they'll end up voting for a Democrat or a Libertarian (which will give the Democrat the win). If not, they'll vote for the Republican, even though they don't agree on a couple of those issues. I hope that most of them choose the latter. The Republican party could certainly benefit from more Libertarian views on fiscal policy, government size and scope, and other things like that - which are the most important things our government should be involved in anyway.

But I do acknowledge and understand the frustration you libertarians feel. We conservatives feel it too. We don't see you as the enemy at all. We just can't violate our beliefs on abortion and marriage. Can't we all just get along?

[Stoof]

I will be the third vote for Johnson. With that being said, If I thought there was a chance in hell Hillary would take Texas I would probably reconsider my vote. Even if it was Chump.

[XBowHunter]

The tough sell that the Libertarians are trying to make is in trying to convince conservative Christians to abandon their opposition for abortion and their support for the definition of marriage being one man and one woman. That's just not gonna happen. Those seem to be 2 of the biggest 3 problems that the (mostly) atheist/agnostic libertarians have with conservatives. The 3rd is legalized pot, and that's a tough sell as well, although maybe not quite as impossible as the other two.

If libertarians are as committed to their views on those three issues as conservatives are, then the argument isn't ever gonna end, unfortunately. Libertarians can band together and vote for their own candidate, which will likely pull just enough votes from the Republican candidate for the Democrat to win. Or Libertarians can vote with the conservatives to make it possible to defeat the Democrat. I know that sucks for the libertarians. But it would suck even more for the conservative majority of the Republican party if they violated their deeply-held beliefs and voted with the Libertarians.

It sucks either way. There's just not much middle ground on a couple of those big issues. It would be great if there were, but I don't see any unfortunately. They're issues where you have to agree to disagree, pretty much.

That's why I've asked libertarians if those issues are the most important issues in deciding on a candidate or not. If so, they'll end up voting for a Democrat or a Libertarian (which will give the Democrat the win). If not, they'll vote for the Republican, even though they don't agree on a couple of those issues. I hope that most of them choose the latter. The Republican party could certainly benefit from more Libertarian views on fiscal policy, government size and scope, and other things like that - which are the most important things our government should be involved in anyway.

But I do acknowledge and understand the frustration you libertarians feel. We conservatives feel it too. We don't see you as the enemy at all. We just can't violate our beliefs on abortion and marriage. Can't we all just get along?

i want a fiscally responsible govt which leaves peoples social lives to themselves. so therefore...


neither party is fiscally responsible. doesn't leave me much to choose from.

[txpitdog]

The tough sell that the Libertarians are trying to make is in trying to convince conservative Christians to abandon their opposition for abortion and their support for the definition of marriage being one man and one woman. That's just not gonna happen. Those seem to be 2 of the biggest 3 problems that the (mostly) atheist/agnostic libertarians have with conservatives. The 3rd is legalized pot, and that's a tough sell as well, although maybe not quite as impossible as the other two.



If libertarians are as committed to their views on those three issues as conservatives are, then the argument isn't ever gonna end, unfortunately. Libertarians can band together and vote for their own candidate, which will likely pull just enough votes from the Republican candidate for the Democrat to win. Or Libertarians can vote with the conservatives to make it possible to defeat the Democrat. I know that sucks for the libertarians. But it would suck even more for the conservative majority of the Republican party if they violated their deeply-held beliefs and voted with the Libertarians.



It sucks either way. There's just not much middle ground on a couple of those big issues. It would be great if there were, but I don't see any unfortunately. They're issues where you have to agree to disagree, pretty much.



That's why I've asked libertarians if those issues are the most important issues in deciding on a candidate or not. If so, they'll end up voting for a Democrat or a Libertarian (which will give the Democrat the win). If not, they'll vote for the Republican, even though they don't agree on a couple of those issues. I hope that most of them choose the latter. The Republican party could certainly benefit from more Libertarian views on fiscal policy, government size and scope, and other things like that - which are the most important things our government should be involved in anyway.



But I do acknowledge and understand the frustration you libertarians feel. We conservatives feel it too. We don't see you as the enemy at all. We just can't violate our beliefs on abortion and marriage. Can't we all just get along?

For me personally, I don't see the abortion/gay marriage/legalization issues as the core difference. On all of those three, I agree with the standard libertarian position that not a single one of those issues is any of the government's **** business to control. However, even aside from that I don't consider those three to be the make or break issues with my vote.

My issue with the GOP is that it represents itself as one thing but does something else. It loves to use the word conservative and freedom and liberty, but then supports the continuation of the Patriot Act. It doesn't stand in the way of an expanded IRS. It rails against gun control but doesn't slow down or control the ATF. Spending isn't any less and the budget isn't any more balanced than with the Democrats, the money is just wasted in different areas.

The GOP needs to decide what it's message is and just stick to it. If it wants to play the conservative card then go all in and be that. Otherwise it will just continue to sound confused and insincere. It tries to be everything and ends up being nothing, which to an independent is not a good sell for joining just to beat the Democrats.

Oddly, Trump is probably the most likely to regain lost independent/libertarian votes, because he is the least like the typical GOP candidate. Ain't saying I'm voting for him but it is an interesting fact.

[muzzlebrake]

So, they all play for the same team but just wear different colored shirts?
Sounds right to me.

[Let's go Brandon!]

For me personally, I don't see the abortion/gay marriage/legalization issues as the core difference. On all of those three, I agree with the standard libertarian position that not a single one of those issues is any of the government's **** business to control. However, even aside from that I don't consider those three to be the make or break issues with my vote.

My issue with the GOP is that it represents itself as one thing but does something else. It loves to use the word conservative and freedom and liberty, but then supports the continuation of the Patriot Act. It doesn't stand in the way of an expanded IRS. It rails against gun control but doesn't slow down or control the ATF. Spending isn't any less and the budget isn't any more balanced than with the Democrats, the money is just wasted in different areas.

The GOP needs to decide what it's message is and just stick to it. If it wants to play the conservative card then go all in and be that. Otherwise it will just continue to sound confused and insincere. It tries to be everything and ends up being nothing, which to an independent is not a good sell for joining just to beat the Democrats.

Oddly, Trump is probably the most likely to regain lost independent/libertarian votes, because he is the least like the typical GOP candidate. Ain't saying I'm voting for him but it is an interesting fact.

Well put

[Ætheling]

I will take time out of my day to vote against Hillary, and I hate going to the polls. I think there are more people like me, but I have no way to confirm that. It is more important to me that the democrats lose and I'm very willing to vote for Trump or Rubio, regardless of how I feel about them. Love Gary Johnson, but it's more important for me to beat that vile liar.

Ive said this in many of the Trump/Cruz threads in the newly created Trump/Cruz Forum.

In the general I am voting for "not Hillary" whatever be thy name. If you try real hard you can guess who I voted for in the Primary.

[Shane]

For me personally, I don't see the abortion/gay marriage/legalization issues as the core difference. On all of those three, I agree with the standard libertarian position that not a single one of those issues is any of the government's **** business to control. However, even aside from that I don't consider those three to be the make or break issues with my vote.

My issue with the GOP is that it represents itself as one thing but does something else. It loves to use the word conservative and freedom and liberty, but then supports the continuation of the Patriot Act. It doesn't stand in the way of an expanded IRS. It rails against gun control but doesn't slow down or control the ATF. Spending isn't any less and the budget isn't any more balanced than with the Democrats, the money is just wasted in different areas.

The GOP needs to decide what it's message is and just stick to it. If it wants to play the conservative card then go all in and be that. Otherwise it will just continue to sound confused and insincere. It tries to be everything and ends up being nothing, which to an independent is not a good sell for joining just to beat the Democrats.

Oddly, Trump is probably the most likely to regain lost independent/libertarian votes, because he is the least like the typical GOP candidate. Ain't saying I'm voting for him but it is an interesting fact.

Amen to that! That's why I like Cruz, and that's why I hope all the fically conservative libertarian types will stay in the Republican party and vote that way during the primaries especially. Primary elections are where the battle for the party's soul are won or lost.