Help me with this debate

[Man]

Presentism - Its a new term that I first heard in 2022 from Bill Maher none the less. But it has stuck in my head every since. Its referenced as a mental moral time machine, where you judge everybody against what you imagine you would have done at that time. You see the woke leftist doing this on a daily basis. Examples would be slavery and the slaughtering of the native Americans to name two.

My argument: Society, its cultures, norms ect have evolved so much that it is unfair to blame people in the past like our European settlers for their actions 200 years ago.

Counter argument: So you would also agree then that Hitler should not have been blamed?

Curious what your counter to the counter would be? I don't think drawing a line at a certain date is a valid counter.

[SmTx]

Counter argument: Thou shalt not kill

[miket]

This is the problem with human logic and society. Right is right, wrong is wrong, regardless of what society says, regardless of what is currently acceptable. Laws and societal norms are not the stick on which right and wrong are measured.

Mankind and our logic is fallible. There is only one arbiter of truth. Our understanding of right and wrong changes, but the creator of it does not.

[miket]

While we are fallible, and our interpretation of right and wrong has clearly been wrong in the past, and will always be to varying degrees, a society and its laws that are based on Christian principles, IMO, will be the closest to true morality. Closest to following truth, closest to true right and wrong. But will be fallible nonetheless, as history clearly shows.

A society without a foundation of principles that it is founded upon will always flounder. A "constitution", if you will

[CEO]

It's hard to compare a crazy person in power, with a multi-century institution like slavery. I heard Darryl Cooper on Tucker make some valid points in regards to slavery. Essentially, slavery wasn't snuffed out until the English had control over the seas in that whole area of the world. Before that, you could be the moral compass, but you would eventually lose out to other countries that would exploit the slave trade. Same argument with the tribes who were selling fellow Africans. They could refuse, but the tribe down the way would continue, eventually using their wealth and trade items (weapons) to take you over.

In 200 years, people will look back and think we were all completely nuts for killing each other with bullets, bombs, and fighter jets. Plenty of people think that now, but imagine the US leadership had an epiphany and decided to lead the way and completely disarm. We would be West China by this time next week.

A great quote I see on another forum; "the past is a foreign country; they do things differently there."

[GarGuy]

Don't worry... AI will determine right and wrong in another 20 years. We won't have to make decisions

[Hardware]

We should always be informed and study history but for someone to dwell and think how wrong something in the past was is insane. Different time, social norms and technology change how things are viewed or interpretated. Also, 24/7/365 news coverage and how it's spun changes how we think. It's history and we can't change it but we can learn from it and move on.

[Hills of Texas]

What was seen as right then, is seen as wrong now. In 200 years we will have been wrong now. There's better things to think about

[tvc184]

Presentism - Its a new term that I first heard in 2022 from Bill Maher none the less. But it has stuck in my head every since. Its referenced as a mental moral time machine, where you judge everybody against what you imagine you would have done at that time. You see the woke leftist doing this on a daily basis. Examples would be slavery and the slaughtering of the native Americans to name two.

My argument: Society, its cultures, norms ect have evolved so much that it is unfair to blame people in the past like our European settlers for their actions 200 years ago.

Counter argument: So you would also agree then that Hitler should not have been blamed?

Curious what your counter to the counter would be? I don't think drawing a line at a certain date is a valid counter.

I have heard him discuss the issue but don’t remember hearing the term.

One of his guests gas said something like, this is wrong and blah blah blah.

Maher countered with, sure from the perspective of someone in 2020 but what would your opinion be if you lived in 1850 and they don’t know what we don’t now?

[tvc184]

And about Hitler, that is a logical fallacy.

In the 1900s slaughtering millions of people based on a religious belief or political belief was not an acceptable standard.

Was it done? Yes, by dictators who would use a quick death for opposition.

[Death from Above]

The USA does not have a moral leg to stand on.

we cannot pass judgement on slavery, hitler or Mussolini while we have a CURRENT testimony of abortion.

we are the world hypocrites…

our collective wisdom on morality as a nation is wrong.

[WItoTX]

OP, I strongly suggest listening to Martyr Made, or even list to Daryl Cooper on JRE last week.

On Martyr Made, he is diving into WWII from the perspective of the Germans. Daryl dives into details no one ever hears, and it really changes a lot of stories. He also takes the position that Churchill was the bad guy in WWII, and makes a good argument for it.

On JRE, he lays out his through process, and they do dive into the German perspective of WWII

[jerp]

"where you judge everybody against what you imagine you would have done at that time. Examples would be slavery and the slaughtering of the native Americans to name two."

This is what annoys me to no end. It all well and good to recognize the evils of the past - slavery, the Holocaust, the treatment of American Indians, etc. However many today - raised with modern sensibilities - seem to be sure they would have recognized those evils and fought against them if they had been alive at the time. To demonstrate this, Robert George, a professor at Princeton asks each freshman class this question - "if you had been raised in the American South in the mid-1800s, how many of you believe you would have been against slavery?" He reports that close to 100% of students always raise their hands. Everybody wants to think they would have been an abolitionist, or part of the tiny percentage of Germans that resisted the Nazis, or been a Freedom Rider during the civil rights struggle in the 1960s. I believe the root of this way of thinking is the basic misunderstanding of human nature that drives much of the progressives philosophy.

[Death from Above]

History tells us that the Holmodor was a driving factor in the way that Germans viewed Jews WAY before WWII.

A societies world view is what sets its moral meter.

Come Lord Jesus Come...

[Clay C]

Presentism - Its a new term that I first heard in 2022 from Bill Maher none the less. But it has stuck in my head every since. Its referenced as a mental moral time machine, where you judge everybody against what you imagine you would have done at that time. You see the woke leftist doing this on a daily basis. Examples would be slavery and the slaughtering of the native Americans to name two.

My argument: Society, its cultures, norms ect have evolved so much that it is unfair to blame people in the past like our European settlers for their actions 200 years ago.

Counter argument: So you would also agree then that Hitler should not have been blamed?

Curious what your counter to the counter would be? I don't think drawing a line at a certain date is a valid counter.

Whoever you are debating is too dumb to waste time on. Nothing is absolute.

The history of Jews being persecuted and slaughtered in Europe/Russia goes back to before Hitler was born, but it wasn't necessarily seen as "acceptable" by the wider population.

Also, History is to learn from. Not assign blame and claim some sort of virtue.

Yes, Americans did some horrible things on our way to becoming the country we are today. So has every other country, group, ethnicity, religion, etc. in the world. Like you said, the world was a different place back then where we didn't have luxuries we do today. People saw things differently, and had to deal with things differently. We evolved, lived, learned and became better.