Why is this not a killing shot?

[Hollis F]

Too high. When the deer ducked so did the lungs, opening up the dreaded "void".

Aim low.

X2

[ranchdog]

I did this twice last year on a buck and a doe. There is no void as far as I am concerned after reading everything including the Deer & Deer Hunting Article. Here are several pictures of these shots. You have to remember that the spine drops way down as it moves into the shoulder area of the deer's body.

[ranchdog]

I finally found the picturee of the doe I shot picture where she came back to the feeder the next day

We later shot this doe with a gun a month later and she was hit above the spine. Just above it. It hit just above and bounced high off her spine. I was in a tree stand 20 feet up, this is the entry side but when it hit the top of the spine it deflected the arrow like bouncing off. Just a freak thing. I was shooting the G5 Striker and I trust this head. Just was not my best shot or she ducked like the Matrix Buck from another TBHer.

[ranchdog]

Here is the buck I did it too. I was two for two that year. At least I was grouping well


This picture shows the exit side where it came out higher.

[Bodey]

I have seen several anatomical charts of deer ,that show varying degrees of "void" between the lungs and the spine. I believe that the lung size and position can vary depending on the deers actual position and breathing status. If he is relaxed and breathing shallow, the lung may be lightly "deflated"and not commanding near as much space as a heavy breathing, excited animal.

I recently finished a good book on blood trailing deer with dogs. The "void" shot is one of the most common and least recoverable shots made. He talked about a lot of single top lung shots that healed and survived, if the deer were not pushed and laid down to clot internally.

Early in my bowhunting days, I arrowed an ancient 14 pt. buck, two years in a row, in exactly the same spot - the VOID. We tracked that deer with blood for over a mile both years and never recovered him. He figured out to never come to a feeder again ,but a year later we found his fresh shed antler and assume he died of old age.

[Smart]

Do you think there is a difference in lung size due to inhale / exhale cycles or relaxed/ excited stages. I have seen anatomical charts on deer that show varying degrees of space between the spine and lungs. Some show 2 1/2 to 3 inches of "void".

I just finished reading a real good book on blood trailing and the shot we are discussing is one of the lowest bleeding shots and one with the highest rate of survivability. Even if one lung is cut significantly, the deer has a high chance of recovery if it can go lay up and clot.

When I was an early on bow hunter, I made this same mistake/shot on the same ancient 14 pt. buck 2 years in a row. Shot him in the exact same spot on the ranch and on his body. Both years,he travelled up hill into some "mountains" for a mile and a half before he quit bleeding. Never saw him again the third year, but found his fresh shed the next spring and assume that the "pin cushion buck" died of old age.

Do you have those charts? I'd like to see them...

I have seen several anatomical charts of deer ,that show varying degrees of "void" between the lungs and the spine. I believe that the lung size and position can vary depending on the deers actual position and breathing status. If he is relaxed and breathing shallow, the lung may be lightly "deflated"and not commanding near as much space as a heavy breathing, excited animal.

I recently finished a good book on blood trailing deer with dogs. The "void" shot is one of the most common and least recoverable shots made. He talked about a lot of single top lung shots that healed and survived, if the deer were not pushed and laid down to clot internally.

Early in my bowhunting days, I arrowed an ancient 14 pt. buck, two years in a row, in exactly the same spot - the VOID. We tracked that deer with blood for over a mile both years and never recovered him. He figured out to never come to a feeder again ,but a year later we found his fresh shed antler and assume he died of old age.

Do you have access to those anatomical charts?.....

[Snakelover]

Let me preface this by saying I have a degree in wildlife biology and have studied the anatomy of each of the orders of vertebrates, including mammals. But any student of anatomy, zoology, wildlife biology, medicine or veterinary medicine can confirm what I'm about to say.

The thoracic cavity is air tight and sealed (until you put an arrow through it). The only opening where air can enter or escape the thoracic cavity is through the nose and mouth and that air is contained INSIDE the lungs. From there, O2 and CO2 gasses are exchanged between the respiratory and circulatory systems through the lung's avioli. Think about it. If the lungs got smaller within the thoraic cavity with an exhale, how would the air on the outside of the lungs get into the thoracic cavity? Secondly, if such were the case, what could keep the lungs from collapsing, since they have no muscular structure of their own? It doesn't happen that way, people. Movement of the diaphram, a muscle separating the thoracic cavity from the abdominal cavity is responsible for drawing air into and pushing air out of the lungs. There is no "void" anywhere around the lungs, regardless of whether an animal is exhaling or inhaling.

I think part of the misconception is that, when you cut a deer open or put a broadhead through it, you introduce air into the thoracic cavity on the outside of the lungs and the lungs in turn collapse. So when we see the lungs, they are NOT in the same condition as they are in a living animal.

[Snakelover]

Wow! Look what I just found! This explains it better than I ever could. Watch this animation video..

How Breathing Works

[Smart]

Wow! Look what I just found! This explains it better than I ever could. Watch this animation video..

How Breathing Works

Excellent link David.....that should help dispel the dreaded void theory

[boss bowman]

I have seen several anatomical charts of deer ,that show varying degrees of "void" between the lungs and the spine. I believe that the lung size and position can vary depending on the deers actual position and breathing status. If he is relaxed and breathing shallow, the lung may be lightly "deflated"and not commanding near as much space as a heavy breathing, excited animal.

I recently finished a good book on blood trailing deer with dogs. The "void" shot is one of the most common and least recoverable shots made. He talked about a lot of single top lung shots that healed and survived, if the deer were not pushed and laid down to clot internally.

Early in my bowhunting days, I arrowed an ancient 14 pt. buck, two years in a row, in exactly the same spot - the VOID. We tracked that deer with blood for over a mile both years and never recovered him. He figured out to never come to a feeder again ,but a year later we found his fresh shed antler and assume he died of old age

[gekko man]

Here are some pics of a buck that was harvested from the Ft McKavett lease. The hunter that shot him, said the arrow was already in the buck when he walked in to the feeder. I believed him because they were not his fletchings or arrows.

Nobody on our lease fessed up and and I think the buck crossed the fence to come in to his feeder.

The shot was high and hit the void. Aim low.......

[Bodey]

Snakelover,
It looks like I am anatomically incorrect. I must have caught some lung on that old buck,both years and he was able to heal up even after all that traveling. Amazingly tough critters.

[Smart]

The shot was high and hit the void. Aim low.......

Maybe I am not seeing the pics good but that arrow looks above the spine.....and through the backstrap........

[TxAg]

Maybe I am not seeing the pics good but that arrow looks above the spine.....and through the backstrap........

ditto

[gekko man]

Maybe I am not seeing the pics good but that arrow looks above the spine.....and through the backstrap........

You are right...it is above the spine. I did not really look at the post cleaning pics. I saw the buck when it was brought in and I dug up the pics for the post.

Somebody on Critters lease last year really sucked!!! No body ever fessed up!!!

For the record...I shoot feathers!!!