Sniper in Vietnam

[miket]

I’ve always wondered about “confirmed” kills, I can’t imagine how many they actually killed that weren’t “confirmed “

In one interview I watched Hathcock said it was "gobs" of unconfirmed kills.

[Russ81]

You quickly pulled your goggler out to check, didn't you? lol

I would have answered Carlos Hathcock and figured everybody would...but he was #4. Not sure how he is more famous that the 3 ahead of him.

My understanding Carlos had to have at least two witnesses for a confirm and the army was more lenient in the confirmation of a kill. Guess the Navy tradition of "Nothing short of the captain's trousers will confirm a kill"

His CO did state if they added his probables he'd been up there above Mawhinney.

[Spiderpig1776]

My dad served a LRRP from 65 to 68 I believe but doesn’t discuss anything about it.

[Big Lee]

One of the worst wars America engaged in. Then turned their back on so many young soldiers. I hope this post doesn't trigger any horrible feelings, memories or thoughts any of our TBH family endured.

[hoythunter02]

Always heard Hathcock. Read some crazy stories about how he would push out alone and do what was needed.


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[AtTheWall]

I met Carlos Hathcock at a Tackle/Bait store in Virginia Beach - THE BAIT BARN. It was a hangout, across the street from the old Army and Navy Amphibious base at Little Creek Virginia. On the shores of the Chesapeake Bay.

And old Military fishing bud and I, were rolling to an evening fish on the Bay, and stopped enroute. The parking lot was filled with military personal vehicles, decals, Marines and other service folk, parked in the lot out front. As we pulled in, I told him, I bet Carlos is here tonight?

I walked in, the entire store was full of cigarette smoke, with Carlos sitting in the middle of the room on a 5 gallon bucket, talking to his gathered group of friends. I immediately recognized him, walked up to Carlos, stuck out my hand, and told him THANKS! He stood up, smiled and shook my hand and the group hooted and clapped.

We talked about custom rifles a bit, tuning and barrel cleanings, for shot group score.

It was simply unreal, and all of us being Military, the entire group, you could feel the Brotherhood in that smoked filled bait shop.

I grabbed some live bait, they all wished us good luck, and we departed.


My buddy asked me, as we crawled into his truck, how did you know he was there? I answered, look at the parking lot.

Carlos chased sharks and THE BAIT BARN gang, all fished the local coastal scene. The store was owned and operated by an ex Marine.

I will never forget it.

[AtTheWall]

Years ago, my Dad and I had some awesome deer hunts with a fellow business friend of my Father. Gene Barnett - US Marine sniper during NAM. We shot a lot and he really provided us some very unreal targeting lessons at range. Hold over, range estimation, viewing the objects in proximity of size in relationship to the target and comparing that to hold over etc.

He simplified the site picture on a scope. The horizontal cross-hair, is the range bar for hold over. If a buck raises his head at range, you focus on that horizontal line as it relates to the neck and head elevated above it's spine. He said to never allow that line to clear above the animal at range otherwise you will shoot high.

He broke down the site picture into some very solid info. And we shot and applied what he was teaching as a group.

Avid bowhunter, and we hunted Archery then shifted to gun, as the season moved along each year together.


Gene worked with my Dad in the Custom Chemical Industry. Both working with Oil/Gas & Agricultural chemicals along the Texas coast. For years, we shared a lease together, and hunted a family ranch during the 1970s. Gene was a few years out of his NAM time.

This is Gene now, working as a Lawman for Conroe. And he volunteers without pay to serve today. He retired as a successful businessman, and told us, he's still got more to do. And serving, keeps him young and alive.


And Gene back then, standing left.

[Quackerbox]

He still has a top 10 distance confirmed kill from Nam. Imagine what he could do with today’s weaponry.

Ive had that thought a bunch. The snipers of those days had wood stocked rifles and 6x scopes.

[muzzlebrake]

I ran into a few Hawkeye army snipers over there and went on one platoon sized mission to rescue a Hawkeye team that got surrounded. My Brigade had a whole team of LRRPS and Hawkeyes attached to it during Operation Wayne Grey 1967. Those Hawkeye boys were some crazy dudes too. I remember one who got busted for taking body part trophies. Seems the parts got to stinking so his stash at Dak To base camp was discovered. I never knew of what any of their body counts were but all total was probably in the hundreds.

[AtTheWall]

Carlos won the Wimbledon Cup Trophy at the 1965 National rifle matches at Camp Perry.

His rifle carried in Vietnam, was a Van Orden Pre 1964 Model 70 Winchester. The Van Orden Model 70s, were modified with heavy Winchester sporter stocks, and barrels 24" or 26" medium heavy. Scopes were Unertl 8x German made, standard reticle (no mil dots). Ammo was 173 grain 30-06 boat tail match rounds. The stocks were bedded, glassed and barrels floated.

At Quantico, he was trained by a Sniper, to shoot one shot per day, document all conditions, temp/wind humidity - everything. And he was told to clean his gun after that one shot, and meet back at the range at a specific time, to shoot one shot only. This went on for months and months, rain snow, freezing weather and heat. The instruction was, no matter what the conditions, you have only one shot to make on a cold gun.

[Quackerbox]

its uncanny really

[Dale Moser]

If I remember correctly from his book, Carlos Hathcock was largely responsible for having armorers placed at different bases in Vietnam to help ensure that everyone's gear was adequate, including the snipers. It's been some years since I read it, but I believe that was the case.

[AtTheWall]

If I remember correctly from his book, Carlos Hathcock was largely responsible for having armorers placed at different bases in Vietnam to help ensure that everyone's gear was adequate, including the snipers. It's been some years since I read it, but I believe that was the case.

That is correct. And the armorers were the group, who tuned these custom Model 70s. Triggers - on both pre and post 1964 Winchester 70s, are highly adjustable. Actions and bedding with scope work.

Those Unertl 8x scopes, were used in WWII and Korea, and early NAM during Carlos time, were military supply at the Quantico main armory.

The Van Orden Model 70s, were purchased in the 1950s, and a lot of Government play was at stake, which gun would be the supported Sniper weapon. They fought that game, by using the Model 70s due to the fact, they won matches with them and not the sem-auto M1C Garand getting pushed as the standard.

[Jon B]

Anybody ever hear of Eric England? He had 98 confirmed kills...3rd most confirmed kills in Vietnam. I wonder why we haven't heard of him.

Interestingly, Chris Kyle had 160 confirmed kills. It's hard to believe he has killed 10 years ago..

Did I catch a spelling mistake made by the English teacher?

[Burnadell]

My understanding Carlos had to have at least two witnesses for a confirm and the army was more lenient in the confirmation of a kill. Guess the Navy tradition of "Nothing short of the captain's trousers will confirm a kill"

His CO did state if they added his probables he'd been up there above Mawhinney.

Yeah, I figured it would take several to confirm since his spotter was his "teammate", but my thought was/is...if the target was shot at a considerable distance with other enemy soldiers around or near the target, and he goes down with the shot...I just wonder how the KILL would be confirmed. The target could have possibly been wounded, and not killed unless they made their way to the body to confirm it. I am in no way trying to question Hathcocks skill or record of his kills...just got to wondering around wandering!

I found on Wikipedia (if true) that a confirmed kill has to include the sniper's spotter PLUS an officer as a third party to witness it.

Since third party officers were rarely present at the time of the kill, many were not "official" confirmed kills.


I selectively copied and pasted the following paragraphs (for brevity) from a NBC News article dated, I think, in 2013:

"Inside one of America’s most select clubs, the tally known as "confirmed kills" is revered yet rarely discussed — meant to be carried silently, worn proudly and certainly never hyped.

“It’s an intimate kill,” said Brandon Webb, an ex-sniper and former Navy SEAL who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. “I’ve dropped plenty of bombs on people in Afghanistan. I don’t count that as a confirmed kill. It’s a very personal thing to pull a trigger and take someone’s life."

“People are fascinated with precision kills and sniping in a way they never were with machine-gunners or artillery strikes,” said one of Kyle’s co-authors, Jim DeFelice. “There’s a preconceived notion of the lone sniper out in the jungle, stalking his target, and finally taking a shot. While they train to do that and it happens on occasion, that’s not where the bulk of any of these guys’ kills come from."

But how are a sniper's kills confirmed and catalogued with any precision?

For the record, the U.S. Army "does not keep any official, or unofficial for that matter, record of confirmed kills," said Wayne V. Hall, a spokesman for the Army. Similarly, U.S. Special Operations Command treats that tally as "unofficial," said Ken McGraw, a spokesman for the command.

"If anything, we shy away from reporting numbers like that. It’s so difficult to prove. And what does it mean?" McGraw said.

But Kyle's co-author, DeFelice, said the sniper routinely reported his kills to immediate commanders "because they had to know what was going on," and he "personally kept track."

"First of all, if he shot someone and let’s say the person crawled away, that wouldn’t be a kill. They had certain criteria. They basically had to see the person fall and be clearly dead," DeFelice said. "Generally, because of where he was operating, it generally meant the body was recovered. Because they were in an urban environment where those kills took place ... where other (U.S.) troops were present. They would recover a body so they had that evidence."

"It's one of those things that's more on the honor system," added Webb, who operates a website called SOFREP that describes itself as a "special operations forces situation report." He won't reveal his own count. "