Elk Hunters, are tags to cheap?

[Wits_End]

I wish there was more science being used in handing out tags. I don’t care if people’s feelings are hurt because they can’t get a tag (myself included). I feel like states should put the resource first instead of just thinking about the money they can make by exploiting it.

This right here, end of conversation. Raising prices does absolutley nothing for the resource. The management needs to come first, every western state is doing the complete opposite of what should be done.

Do you guys feel the wildlife departments are not balancing the herds properly to the available land? I have no idea and you likely have great insight. I've read studies saying that when elk numbers increase significantly there are far more car wrecks, destroyed crops, and other non-hunting impacts that must be controlled legally. Although this topic is such a tangent to the conversation being had that it doesn't fit here.

Raising the price impacts the consistency for which people can hunt, which absolutely impacts the resource by less pressure. The current $800 tag already restricts many people from hunting every year, raising the price is simply moving that line to add more people to the list.

[Mossback]

Do you guys feel the wildlife departments are not balancing the herds properly to the available land? I have no idea and you likely have great insight. I've read studies saying that when elk numbers increase significantly there are far more car wrecks, destroyed crops, and other non-hunting impacts that must be controlled legally. Although this topic is such a tangent to the conversation being had that it doesn't fit here.

Raising the price impacts the consistency for which people can hunt, which absolutely impacts the resource by less pressure. The current $800 tag already restricts many people from hunting every year, raising the price is simply moving that line to add more people to the list.

Its not the available land its the available tags. Tags need to be cut in most zones across the west (there are exceptions to this in some zones in all states). It doesn't matter if you raise the price only, this has been proven with the unit wide landowner tag programs. The UW landowner tags in New Mexico range from $1000-25k depending on the zone, Landowners don't have a problem selling them. Its quite the opposite actually, its become a market place now where ppl, tag brokers, and outfitters are outbidding each other to pay a higher price yearly. I deal with it every year with my landowners in New Mexico. If you raise the price of tags and I promise you this, someone will buy it and you are right back to square one. Everyone loses in this situation except the wildlife agencies. I'm not going to get into the NR fee versus resident on FEDERAL lands argument. another place another time.

[WItoTX]

Do you guys feel the wildlife departments are not balancing the herds properly to the available land? I have no idea and you likely have great insight. I've read studies saying that when elk numbers increase significantly there are far more car wrecks, destroyed crops, and other non-hunting impacts that must be controlled legally. Although this topic is such a tangent to the conversation being had that it doesn't fit here.

Raising the price impacts the consistency for which people can hunt, which absolutely impacts the resource by less pressure. The current $800 tag already restricts many people from hunting every year, raising the price is simply moving that line to add more people to the list.

This is correct. Biologists are asked their opinion, they provide suggestions, but so many states, such as CO, CA, and soon to be MT, then ask the public to vote on the matter.

For example, CO banned spring bear season a few seasons back after taking a public vote. Biologists warned this will increase bear numbers. Well know what eats a lot of elk calves? Bears. And there are more bear in CO than ever before.

We aren't allows to hunt wolves for the most part. Well guess what, Wolf population has skyrocketed, and biologists see a subsequent decline in elk population in those area's. Well guess what? Public opinion is wolves should be on the landscape. So the biologists scientific, reasoned animal populations are negated by "public opinion" from people who will never step foot in the woods.

[wytex]

Sorry WitoTX show me a state that manages anything for the benefit of NRs, especially wildlife.
If you cant see why a state would manage for the beneft of their residents then this is a moot conversation.
The very reason NR tags are more expensive is to make that extra funding from folks that don't live and pay taxes in our state.

I would love to see you try and get equal amount of licenses for NR is any state out west. That is nothing short of entitlement. More money is not the answer, better management is the answer for some states- not Wyoming.

We have the Wildlife Task Force working right now working on ways to get more licenses for residents in Wyoming, please send them your thoughts on this issue. They will read them and print the out for all to read. Can't wait to see the responses you get.

[jaker_cc]

Do you guys feel the wildlife departments are not balancing the herds properly to the available land? I have no idea and you likely have great insight. I've read studies saying that when elk numbers increase significantly there are far more car wrecks, destroyed crops, and other non-hunting impacts that must be controlled legally. Although this topic is such a tangent to the conversation being had that it doesn't fit here.

Raising the price impacts the consistency for which people can hunt, which absolutely impacts the resource by less pressure. The current $800 tag already restricts many people from hunting every year, raising the price is simply moving that line to add more people to the list.

Off the top of my head I can think of 10 units, that are known as trophy units for either elk or mule deer, that are in my opinion being exploited in 3 different states.

In Montana where I’m most familiar with, they are waging war on elk. Shoulder seasons, 2 month general seasons, crazy numbers of archery only tags, month long limited entry rifle season, B list cow tags. Month and a half long rifle season for mule deer that runs during the rut!! The deer are grossly mismanaged.

In New Mexico there is a cluster of units up north for deer that is the premier cluster of units. They give out 100 tags for a late archery hunt during the rut. In the same unit they give out 200 youth tags IN A TRIOPHY UNIT during the migration where deer are dropping down from Colorado. Now you have every kid out there with their dads and 3 uncles shooting bucks from Colorado. If those were New Mexico deer you can bet your butts they wouldn’t have a heavy youth season killing the heck out of those deer. Why not give those kids doe tags and a select number of buck tags instead of hammering those deer during the migration to winter range??

As far as a whole I think states take care of landowners and outfitters. I think Wyoming does a great job of managing the resource first. Colorado is a joke, New Mexico needs about 500 new game wardens to keep people honest, Montana can’t keep elk on public land and out of the crop fields. Then they add tags to lower the population on public land instead of killing the elk on private that are causing the issues. Landowners can open their property to block management to cut down on crop damage, but they complain instead about the elk until game and fish changes things to screw over the public land guys

[jaker_cc]

Sorry WitoTX show me a state that manages anything for the benefit of NRs, especially wildlife.
If you cant see why a state would manage for the beneft of their residents then this is a moot conversation.
The very reason NR tags are more expensive is to make that extra funding from folks that don't live and pay taxes in our state.

I would love to see you try and get equal amount of licenses for NR is any state out west. That is nothing short of entitlement. More money is not the answer, better management is the answer for some states- not Wyoming.

We have the Wildlife Task Force working right now working on ways to get more licenses for residents in Wyoming, please send them your thoughts on this issue. They will read them and print the out for all to read. Can't wait to see the responses you get.

The equal number of tags for non residents will never happen. And it shouldn’t.

Wyoming does a great job of managing the resource. I’d like to see more states look out fir the public land hunter like Wyoming does. Except for that **** wilderness law haha

[wytex]

The equal number of tags for non residents will never happen. And it shouldn’t.

Wyoming does a great job of managing the resource. I’d like to see more states look out fir the public land hunter like Wyoming does. Except for that **** wilderness law haha

jaker, I agree. That law is BS but the outfitters pushed it and have the voice to get it to stay in the books. I would gladly see it go away and open up some more land for NR to hunt DIY.

Mossback , Wyoming bases their license allocations on game counts, don't lump us in with Colorado. Elk numbers are great in Wyoming. Residents get a say at season setting meetings but we do not have authority to change what WG&F sets for seasons or licenses. Our biologists do their due diligence in getting numbers before they set license allocations.

[Mossback]

jaker, I agree. That law is BS but the outfitters pushed it and have the voice to get it to stay in the books. I would gladly see it go away and open up some more land for NR to hunt DIY.

Mossback , Wyoming bases their license allocations on game counts, don't lump us in with Colorado. Elk numbers are great in Wyoming. Residents get a say at season setting meetings but we do not have authority to change what WG&F sets for seasons or licenses. Our biologists do their due diligence in getting numbers before they set license allocations.

Yes I agree, I misspoke in my original comment, Wyoming does have the best management for elk in the West. Its a shame what's happening to the mule deer across the west though. Figures its the only state I'm maxed out on Mule deer points. I can't wait to hunt Wyoming again though, if i can get this work from home gig to stick I may be moving there.

[wytex]

Sorry Mossback and WItoTx, don't mean to come off as an azz. Just don't like seeing Wyoming lumped in with the likes of Colorado on management, WG&F does have it's issues too though.
Nice to see so many taking the management side instead of the license cost side.

[WItoTX]

Sorry WitoTX show me a state that manages anything for the benefit of NRs, especially wildlife.
If you cant see why a state would manage for the beneft of their residents then this is a moot conversation.
The very reason NR tags are more expensive is to make that extra funding from folks that don't live and pay taxes in our state.

I would love to see you try and get equal amount of licenses for NR is any state out west. That is nothing short of entitlement. More money is not the answer, better management is the answer for some states- not Wyoming.

We have the Wildlife Task Force working right now working on ways to get more licenses for residents in Wyoming, please send them your thoughts on this issue. They will read them and print the out for all to read. Can't wait to see the responses you get.

The problem I have with this. The residents ARE NOT experts. They are acting only in their own self interest (It's not right or wrong, it's just the fact of the matter). Your wildlife task force needs to make decisions based on the criteria established. In your state, the public has decided it wants to manage for quality, not quantity. Perfect. Now sit back and let the biologists do their job. Instead, we get into this stupid game of decision by consensus (Let's ask the public what they think), instead of one person, or small group of people, making decisions based on established criteria. I promise you, WY's management by consensus will bite WY is the *** one day. Might be 10 or 20 years from now, but it will happen once you get some tree huggers from CA moved in. "Aww, son look at that cute bear. Tanner, can you go stand by the bear for a photo?"

Which is the same issue I have with residents getting a say in management numbers. If a biologist, or team of biologists, say we have to manage all animals, including bear, lions, and wolves, then the residents, and public in general, don't get to then vote that wolf, bear, or lion hunting get banned. That screws up the entire system, and we end up in a situation like Colorado has, where bear population has exploded, and elk numbers are dropping, especially on public land. Meanwhile elk just move further into town, causing more disturbances to the general public.

As for the equal amount of NR and resident licenses. Sure, maybe it shouldn't be 50/50 split. My point was, if 35% of app's are from NR's, the NR's should be allocated 35% of tags. Since most states draw long after app's have been submitted, it should not be too difficult to figure out what that % is. Additionally, it would benefit the state financially (NR's pay way more for tags AND are not a tax burden to the state), would give more, less experienced people a chance to hunt, which means more elk tags for the same size herd.

[DRT]

The quality side of management may be the bust of all hunting.
Manage for numbers. Have some trophy units maybe that are a tough draw, expensive tag, but make it where the average working man who drives up two days before season using his only two weeks of vacation to elk hunt has a chance to at least see them.
But it won't happen. Too much greed.

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[RiverRat1]

Maybe the FED government should just take over wildlife in all States. They could run it far better.

[CrownKiller14]

If those guys/gals don't start standing up for hunting in the west it's not going to matter anyways. Only place you'll have to shoot an elk is behind a big fence or out in W Tx.

[BuckSmasher]

Off the top of my head I can think of 10 units, that are known as trophy units for either elk or mule deer, that are in my opinion being exploited in 3 different states.

In Montana where I’m most familiar with, they are waging war on elk. Shoulder seasons, 2 month general seasons, crazy numbers of archery only tags, month long limited entry rifle season, B list cow tags. Month and a half long rifle season for mule deer that runs during the rut!! The deer are grossly mismanaged.

In New Mexico there is a cluster of units up north for deer that is the premier cluster of units. They give out 100 tags for a late archery hunt during the rut. In the same unit they give out 200 youth tags IN A TRIOPHY UNIT during the migration where deer are dropping down from Colorado. Now you have every kid out there with their dads and 3 uncles shooting bucks from Colorado. If those were New Mexico deer you can bet your butts they wouldn’t have a heavy youth season killing the heck out of those deer. Why not give those kids doe tags and a select number of buck tags instead of hammering those deer during the migration to winter range??

As far as a whole I think states take care of landowners and outfitters. I think Wyoming does a great job of managing the resource first. Colorado is a joke, New Mexico needs about 500 new game wardens to keep people honest, Montana can’t keep elk on public land and out of the crop fields. Then they add tags to lower the population on public land instead of killing the elk on private that are causing the issues. Landowners can open their property to block management to cut down on crop damage, but they complain instead about the elk until game and fish changes things to screw over the public land guys

I don't have much experience in NM but you are spot on in the MT assessment.

The quality side of management may be the bust of all hunting.
Manage for numbers. Have some trophy units maybe that are a tough draw, expensive tag, but make it where the average working man who drives up two days before season using his only two weeks of vacation to elk hunt has a chance to at least see them.
But it won't happen. Too much greed.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

I don't think quality elk tags are hurting quantity of elk. Quantity of bull tags yes. Ranchers, urban development, and tree huggers eliminating predator management are the biggest issues.