Teeth Aging Texas Hill Country Deer

[GarGuy]

If the best experts cant tell is a deer is 5 or 10(see op)... im not sure what value there is. I'm all ears and lookhg forward to hearing how wear is useful.

[Chance Love]

Deer get bigger when they get older. Their teeth wear more the older they get. Because that is true, tooth wear has application in management in light of its specificity limitations.

Just because I point out the limitations of ageing on the hoof and building history, that does not prevent them from being useful tools in management. Just like the inaccuracies of tooth wear do not prevent it from being a useful tool in management.

If tooth wear is as inaccurate as we claim, and as inaccurate as you claim, how is it a useful tool in management?

[Top Of Texas]

If the best experts cant tell is a deer is 5 or 10(see op)... im not sure what value there is. I'm all ears and lookhg forward to hearing how wear is useful.

What's an op?

[Top Of Texas]

If tooth wear is as inaccurate as we claim, and as inaccurate as you claim, how is it a useful tool in management?

I think the main difference in our view points is this - Y'all have witnessed a regular occurrence of large discrepancies between field age and tooth age. A difference of 3 to 6 years. I have not witnessed that to be a regular occurrence. It does occur, but it is exceptionally rare.

Until y'all can grasp the concept that a deer's teeth wear more the older it gets AND that the specific years of that deer's life are irrelevant, then there's nothing I can show you that will reveal the uses of tooth wear data. It's like quoting the bible to an atheist. To an atheist, the bible might as well be an issue of Mad Magazine.

[Top Of Texas]

Let me try this...

I've attached charts. They should be familiar by this point. However, this time I altered only the labels for the bottom line in hopes that the hang-up on nailing down the years will be flushed. Does this help?

If not, just imagine that each column represents progressively increasing tooth wear. Don't assign years to each column, just increasing tooth wear.

These are real charts from real life data collected from individuals who have a clear understanding of the methodology.

You see?! It doesn't matter if the buck, in reality, is 6 years old or 14 years old. What matters, is that you can spot a buck that is at or near peak age while he's still alive and in the pasture. The vast majority of the time, that buck should have at least 1 dished out molar and maybe more.

See?!

[HNT ETX]

I don’t know how teeth could play any other role than confirmation at best? You have to have some way to judge the animal BEFORE you kill it. What is the point of recording its age (or stage) once its dead?

To any advocate for tooth aging.....what would you say is the best method for choosing what deer to pull the trigger on? And what point does it make once its bare teeth come in to play? Confirmation....yes this hunter knows what they are doing or no this hunter does not? Is that the point of teeth wear? That is the only way i could see that it could be used. And if any scientist or tooth wear advocate agrees that it is inaccurate, why hold a hunters feet to the fire using an inexact “science”. And if you don’t agree with holding a hunters feet to the fire using this inexact science, what is the point of categorizing an animal by tooth wear at all? If teeth can be off by say two years, and i beleive we have established that it commonly is.....a hinter could kill a 6.5 year old deer, three years in a row and be kicked off a place for consistently killing 4.5 yo deer? I just dont see how it is usefull at all.

If it is not confirmation of hunters ability to properly judge a deer on the hoof, what exactly is the point of knowing what the deers teeth say once they are dead and on the ground?

I guess being a “tooth reader” is kind of like being a weatherman.......with a 2-3 yr margin of error, how can you ever actually be wrong?

[HNT ETX]

I am just curious to know what role knowing the age according to teeth actually plays? How do i apply it if i am in charge of a lease?

[GarGuy]

What's an op?

Original post

[GarGuy]

If it is not confirmation of hunters ability to properly judge a deer on the hoof, what exactly is the point of knowing what the deers teeth say once they are dead and on the ground?

I guess being a “tooth reader” is kind of like being a weatherman.......with a 2-3 yr margin of error, how can you ever actually be wrong?[/QUOTE]


TOT missed the three deer posted in this thread by a collective 20 years. He is an expert at tooth wear by the book. Absolute proof that tooth wear is nothing more than a novelty.

ToT also erred 10 years on the deer i posted Oct pics of as would I have without history. Some deer get obviously old as they mature . Some post mature deer get younger looking too.

This year I have a big blocky 10 that I figured a new deer and 5 yrs old. I was looking at last years pics yesterday and was stunned to find him in a pic with another buck last year. Without a doubt he was 2 . Field judging is an imperfect art. The best case is combining history with observation. Teeth are just here to chew with.

Can you just imagine some 28 yr old biologist fresh out of school ripping hunters for killing those first two10 plus year old bucks? I have seen it with my own two eyes. Then the land owner starts hearing how the hunters are shooting young deer with great potential. First thing you know that group gets black balled.

[mgalbreath39]

Until y'all can grasp the concept that a deer's teeth wear more the older it gets AND that the specific years of that deer's life are irrelevant, then there's nothing I can show you that will reveal the uses of tooth wear data.

I think everyone agrees that as a deer gets older their teeth will wear. Just not at the rate studies or charts say. I also think everyone agrees that as a deer gets older their antlers will get bigger to a point.

ToT, here's what I'm getting from your side. Teeth will tell me the deer possibly had more potential to get bigger, the deer is right around its peak, or the deer is on the downhill side. It will tell me nothing about the age of the deer.

Here's a scenario. Lets say based on my history(Pics/sighting/field aging) a buck is a approx. age. Lets say I believe him to be 6 yrs old. I decide to take this buck based on hunting pressure in my area. I feel on most places if a buck makes it to 6yrs old he did a pretty good job at hiding in the bushes. Now lets say the teeth show (based on your last chart) he falls into the "still to young" category. I was expecting him to be in the "ok but might've got better" category. Now I'm disappointed in what the teeth show but I'm confident in my history and choice to take the buck that year. The odds of this buck making it X number of years to the "Yeah Baby!" category are very slim. Could the buck possibly gotten bigger? Very likely. Could the buck jump the fence get hit by a car or shot by another hunter? Even more likely!

My Question. How and where do the teeth work into my management plan when it comes to taking a deer? or What are the teeth telling me about my management plan?

[jshouse]

Let me try this...

I've attached charts. They should be familiar by this point. However, this time I altered only the labels for the bottom line in hopes that the hang-up on nailing down the years will be flushed. Does this help?

If not, just imagine that each column represents progressively increasing tooth wear. Don't assign years to each column, just increasing tooth wear.

These are real charts from real life data collected from individuals who have a clear understanding of the methodology.

You see?! It doesn't matter if the buck, in reality, is 6 years old or 14 years old. What matters, is that you can spot a buck that is at or near peak age while he's still alive and in the pasture. The vast majority of the time, that buck should have at least 1 dished out molar and maybe more.

See?!

so how is it a management tool if you cant verify it till after the deer is dead?

[kyle1974]

Teeth Aging Texas Hill Country Deer

so how is it a management tool if you cant verify it till after the deer is dead?

I see it No different than recording weight of deer after they’ve been killed. It’s just a data point to track trends, progress. Etc.

I’m not one to claim jaw wear is accurate to the year, in fact I posted a link to a study that showed its often inaccurate.

But being off by +\- a year or two versus being off by 5-6 years is another argument.

I see deer all the time that have tooth wear that shows less age than they were assumed to be on the hoof. Which is why I’ve also submitted cementum annuli tests. Those tests seem to be closer to the assumed age in cases the tooth wear didn’t show it.

It’s just one thing to give some assurance that the deer you’re killing are as old as you think they are.

[jshouse]

I see it No different than recording weight of deer after they’ve been killed. It’s just a data point to track trends, progress. Etc.

I’m not one to claim jaw wear is accurate to the year, in fact I posted a link to a study that showed its often inaccurate.

But being off by +\- a year or two versus being off by 5-6 years is another argument.

I see deer all the time that have tooth wear that shows less age than they were assumed to be on the hoof. Which is why I’ve also submitted cementum annuli tests. Those tests seem to be closer to the assumed age in cases the tooth wear didn’t show it.

It’s just one thing to give some assurance that the deer you’re killing are as old as you think they are.

gotcha. i guess i was looking at a management tool as something used to determine if a deer should be shot or not. weight is a black and white data point, even something that can possibly used in the field, doesnt look like tooth wear is.

[CentralTXHunter]

I have read through this whole discussion and kept up with it over the last couple of weeks. I have no first hand knowledge of watching the same deer for years. My pattern of leasing for the last decade has been: find an awesome place, hunt for a year and pass some quality deer while I learn the place, hunt the next year, and then the place gets sold. Rinse and repeat. I’m super envious of y’all that have the ability to watch deer and learn your herd extensively over a decade +. That’s truly a fortunate position to be in and one I hope to be in myself when I stop leasing and buy my own acreage to hunt.

My observations from this discussion are that for a hunter making a decision on to release an arrow or a fire a bullet is most commonly made from antler size and/or body conformation. It has been noted that really old deer can sometimes look like grandpa or a spring chicken. Intense monitoring by in person sightings, trail cams, heli-surveys, etc can give you history with a deer to have a reasonable idea of the age. If you are trying to only harvest mature 7-8+ year old deer, this is the only way, without ear-tagging, to follow and manage your herd before the shot.

What I think the teeth aging point that is attempting to be made is that it can still be an after the fact management tool. I believe that teeth on a deer wear differently in different areas and with different feed programs, but the research presented shows that deer are at or nearing their peak antler potential when certain tooth characteristics are seen. Now are those characteristics shown in a 6 year old deer on your place, but in a 9 year old deer on mine? I don’t know, but what I think you could do is still use it as a tool.

If we say, alright, we are only going to kill 8+ year old deer and after the last 7 years of watching our herd, these are the 8+ year old deer on our hit list. Season goes along and you harvest 5 bucks from the list. You remove their jaws and upon inspecting them, you find that their teeth show the characteristics that they were at the top of their antler potential based on wear from the teeth. Great! It’s just another confirmation that we are doing the right thing. On the other hand, if the teeth were nubs and those deer were on the decline (in antler size for this season) then maybe we need to move down our harvest year minimum by one year to 7+. Or if they show that there was still a lot of potential in those deer, then maybe we move our minimum up a year to 9+. Not using it as an absolute to make a hard decision off of, but as a tool to confirm or question your management program along with all the other tools you are already utilizing.

Again, I could be completely wrong, and I’m fine with that. I don’t have near the experience that many of y’all that have chimed in do. This is just my observation from the discussions that have commenced thus far.


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[kyle1974]

gotcha. i guess i was looking at a management tool as something used to determine if a deer should be shot or not. weight is a black and white data point, even something that can possibly used in the field, doesnt look like tooth wear is.

It’s definitely an after the fact data point.

I have a bucket full I’m going to look at from deer who’s drapes didn’t match the curtains.

Is that the right phrase? [emoji23]