Teeth Aging Texas Hill Country Deer

[Top Of Texas]

Your first paragraph acknowledges the inaccuracy of tooth wear and your last paragraph agrues that it is accurate and nothing short of an academic study will convince you otherwise.

No sir, that's a false statement.

I acknowledge the inaccuracies of tooth wear. I do not acknowledge the frequency of high degree discrepancies between field age/history and tooth wear, i.e. 10 year old with 4 year old teeth.

[GarGuy]

No sir, that's a false statement.

I acknowledge the inaccuracies of tooth wear. I do not acknowledge the frequency of high degree discrepancies between field age/history and tooth wear, i.e. 10 year old with 4 year old teeth.

Right... tell us again about the teeth Chance posted. He j ust got his deer mixed up? I'll say this again... virtually all of our 7 to 10 year old deer tooth age 4 to 6.

You touted the importance of tooth wear in developing AR. I'm pretty sure either you or myself could have looked at all those dead 80lb 4 pts and 6pts and known they were 1.5 before seeing a milk tooth. I owned a processing plant for a while. I saw a bunch of them.

[jason2547]

See!? That's exactly what I was talking about! That perfectly illustrates that point. We've been falsely lead astray and convinced that's all that matters.

Studies from the 1940s and 1950s discuss the inaccuracies of tooth wear for nailing down exact years and go on to desribe its importance in management. It's not new. What's new, in the last few decades, is the sole focus on the specific years of individual deer. Step back and see the forest.

I'm trying to figure out how to post these studies and others. I have them in PDF, but can't figure out how to share here. Help and guidance requested.

So, what I am getting from this thread, is that deer begin to "go downhill" when their teeth begin to wear out...I think I agree with this. However, WHEN that individual deer's teeth begin to wear out, varies by age (and other factors)...I agree with this. So, there is no direct correlation between age and tooth wear, so we can throw the charts out. The individual deer does "peak" at some point before its teeth wear out, but that could be anywhere between 6 and 13. So, again, we should throw the charts out, and simply agree that deer like the third one that Chance posted are probably past their prime. What am I missing?

[GarGuy]

To establish meaningful data, you need to build your own database based on deer in the area you hunt based on known aged deer. Having said that, the jawbones pictured if typical diet and habitat, #1 would be in the early mature (5 1/2 year old) class, #2 would be in the middle aged class, (3 1/2- 4 1/2) and #3 is post mature (7 or older)... That's about a close as you can get from a blind set of specimens.

I read back through and figured I would gig my friend Charlie a little..... he came up witha total age of 17 on the three deer.

Actual age ..37 plus. Just missed it a measly 20 years on three deer.

Atta boy Charlie

[Top Of Texas]

Right... tell us again about the teeth Chance posted. He j ust got his deer mixed up? I'll say this again... virtually all of our 7 to 10 year old deer tooth age 4 to 6.

I have not witnessed that being a common trend.

This is a good example of the importance of scientific research. It investigates beyond observation and theory. My observation has not been the same as yours and Chance's. There are many who, like me, recognize the inaccuracies of tooth wear and the limitations of its applicability but have the experience to know where it applies and how it can help guide decisions or analyze past actions. But with regards to the frequency of multi-year discrepancies, it's your word against mine.

It reminds me of the Monty Python bit about the pet parrot. This thread keeps bringing it to my mind. From my perspective, I'm the customer holding the evidence of what he claims while the shop owner denies and evades. And of course, you and several others view those roles reversed.

I got some stuff on my plate I've got to tend to. I'll come back and share some of the original work on tooth wear and maybe that will help relieve some of the "gotta get the year right" focus as well as demonstrate how it has incorrectly evolved in that manner by trophy pursuits during the last few decades. Also more useful analytical applications.

[Top Of Texas]

Oh, and real quick, I almost forgot. Based on a few previous comments, I thought maybe some folks hadn't seen the table I posted on accuracy of aging on the hoof. Or maybe didn't follow it, or at least didn't see the parallel. So I'm sharing again for viewer's further contemplation.

[GarGuy]

TOT, what really needs to happen is that you need to get you some good cameras and run them a few years. It wont take the fun out of hunting but it will take the fun out of arguing for tooth wear.

I know the wire is still hot first hand. An electrician can explain the flow of electrons and how a flipped breaker interrupts the circuit thus rendering the wire safe. Yep but that wire was still hot. You are a great guy trying to help just like my electrician friend. You know your stuff just like he did. Try it for your self and you will see. Every single person I know that has collected history and let the deer get old have learned the same lesson. Every single one.

[diamond10x]

Great thread. Lots of good info, thank you Chance and GarGuy!

We started aging deer by teeth when it was all the rage and we found it to just not be very credible. We would kill some bucks that we knew for sure were 5+ But the teeth did not match up to that age. We have gotten away from this and go by history and this seems to be much more accurate but not as close to actually tagging deer. Another management plan we followed was shooting almost all spikes. After 6-7 years of this our buck numbers obviously went down and we hadn’t seen very many mature good bucks like we did in the past before our war on spikes. When we quit all those fad management ideas and went to making sure ratios were right and making sure there was plenty of water and good nutrition and only harvesting off of known history our herd has improved ten fold. We still have a ton to learn and I hope both of you guys and a lot of others who are quite knowledgeable in this aspect keep the conversation going. Sorry for my long winded response when I could just have said I agree.

[GarGuy]

Where are all the ranchers that have been collecting history 10 years and learned that tooth wear really matches up well to known age?

[Benno]

No sir, that's a false statement.

I acknowledge the inaccuracies of tooth wear. I do not acknowledge the frequency of high degree discrepancies between field age/history and tooth wear, i.e. 10 year old with 4 year old teeth.

How many known 10yr old deer teeth have you aged? It would make sense to me for tooth wear to be with in a couple of years on most ranches because I would guess most deer are killed between the ages of 4-6rs old, leaving a smaller range to be accurate vs aging deer in upper ages allowing the frequency of discrepancies to be greater. I would feel safe assuming ranches like Chance hunt on are the extreme minority where they consistently kill deer in the 8+ yr old range leaving very few people to actually consistently view a deers teeth in that age group. I’ve only had a handful of deer I could actually identify and follow for more than a couple of years.

[Chance Love]

Where are all the ranchers that have been collecting history 10 years and learned that tooth wear really matches up well to known age?

Well this is a good question.

Taken a step farther, is there anyone here with 10+ years history with a herd that feels teeth are accurate?

[TexasTK]

Well this is a good question.

Taken a step farther, is there anyone here with 10+ years history with a herd that feels teeth are accurate?

16 yrs history w my herd & tooth wear is rarely accurate except yearlings & fawns.

[GarGuy]

Well this is a good question.

Taken a step farther, is there anyone here with 10+ years history with a herd that feels teeth are accurate?

I know a bunch of folks following deer and I don't know a single one that believes teeth match actual age on mature deer.

[Top Of Texas]

I went back through the entire thread. Below I pasted the following statements that I've made regarding accuracy of tooth wear. I hope by compiling these quotes that y'all will cease making arguments attacking the accuracy of tooth wear. I know.

"We already know that tooth wear has limitations and inaccuracies, and it's important to keep those in mind when making management decisions."

"A big problem has become hunters and managers applying the technique beyond its limitations"

"I acknowledge that tooth wear is imprecise."

"The teeth showed 8 years old. Our fawn crops in 2011 and 2012 were next to 0% due to drought. That would suggest the deer was most likely born prior to 2011, which would have made him at least 10."

"Tooth wear doesn't have to always be spot on. It doesn't have to nail down every year for every deer. It can't. It doesn't have to be flawless."

"...other data that also demonstrates the inaccuracies of tooth wear."

"As I've said numerous times, I'm fully aware of the inaccuracies of tooth wear"

"I have numerous times acknowledged the the inaccuracy of tooth wear."

"We've been aware of the inaccuracies of tooth wear since, at least, I was first trained in the early 90's. That is not new information."

"Studies from the 1940s and 1950s discuss the inaccuracies of tooth wear for nailing down exact years…It's not new."

"I acknowledge the inaccuracies of tooth wear."

"There are many who, like me, recognize the inaccuracies of tooth wear and the limitations of its applicability"

"...another leading cause of confusion is people getting hung up on the "years""

"...flush the years down the toilet"

"...antler size and body conformation are correlated with tooth wear.
Forget about the years."

"Forget about the years."

"Stop focusing on the years."

"Stop focusing on the years."

"We all need to stop worrying about nailing down the years"

"...age matters, but the specificity doesn't."

"Look at the big picture and don't get hung up on nailing down a year."

"That's an old deer. Don't get hung up on nailing down the years."

"whitetails peak in antler growth when their teeth show 1-2 dished out molars. Regardless of the actual years - that's true."

"Stop worrying about nailing down the years of individual bucks"

Deer get bigger when they get older. Their teeth wear more the older they get. Because that is true, tooth wear has application in management in light of its specificity limitations.

[Top Of Texas]

TOT, what really needs to happen is that you need to get you some good cameras and run them a few years. It wont take the fun out of hunting but it will take the fun out of arguing for tooth wear.

I've already done that. During the 90's, at the infancy of the trail cam era, I ran numerous Trail Masters. Those old ones with a transmitter and receiver where the deer had to break the beam. I used the modern stuff quite a bit from about 2005 through about 2015. I don't recall any of the deer having teeth that surprised me.

I went back through the thread, again, and pasted below my previous statements on that subject.

"What has yet to be scientifically established is the methodology of following a buck over consecutive years based on antler confirmation. I've done it a lot (or so I think)"

"As related to deer history. I have had an untold number of bucks over the years where I felt very confident I had followed their development with trail camera photos or sightings."

"...antler shape, unique marks, or whatever (sometimes very creative), are used as cues in an attempt to keep track of the same buck during its life. I get it. I've done it."

"I acknowledge that photographic history with a buck can build confidence in determining harvest time"

"...following bucks over consecutive years can be done and is a great tool."

"...agining on the hoof is a valuable and useful tool in deer management. Even if you don't nail the year."

"That is a substantially cool double throat patch! I can see where he'd be easy to follow"

"My comments in no way reduce the value of aging on the hoof or developing history with a deer. Those are fabulous management tools."

"I believe I followed that buck for 5 seasons and he got bigger every year."

"I've stated numerous times that developing history can be done and can be a great management tool and that I've done it myself."

"Ranch #2 probably builds history with their deer."

"I have numerous times stated the value of building history. It's great!"

Just because I point out the limitations of ageing on the hoof and building history, that does not prevent them from being useful tools in management. Just like the inaccuracies of tooth wear do not prevent it from being a useful tool in management.