Red Wolf?

[RedRaider323]

We have them North of Robert Lee. I have seen a small group of 4 for a couple of years now. They are RED compared to the regular coyotes we shoot. Stand way out in the brush. Look bigger too. There was an old article in the newspaper there that had a picture of my grandad holding up one of these Wolfs that he snared with a bell on its neck. He always referred to the red ones as wolfs when I was little.

[3DW5]

Yeah I'm not trying to be a richard. And I know that the way I responded did

As an undergrad I spent several years helping with a study on Galapagos tortoise and mgmt between the islands. Then spent 4 years as the lab manager for the genetics lab at the Omaha zoo. Then spent 7 years in another conservation genetics lab where the primary focus the last 4 years of that stint was making genetic management recommendations for the International Whaling Commission.

For the last 10 years I have been researching hairless primates (humans) at a medical center.

I wish the red wolf was still around here, but that battle was lost 80-90 years ago

Hairless primates.... alrighty then

[wildaggie]

The guy That took the pictures and posted it on FB is not an expert on red wolves, or any wildlife. He rescues and studies domestic dogs. He thought the animal looked different, so he contacted USFWS. TPWD’s Mammalogist responded today. See below. Many coyotes have red wolf genes in them, some just express those traits more than others.
From FB:
Texas Wildlife Diversity Program - Texas Parks and Wildlife Dept
From TPWD Mammologist Jonah Evans:

"Many of you have probably seen this post going around that reports a possible red wolf found in the Dallas area. We've received numerous questions about it and would like to offer a few points to help clear up any confusion.

First, it is very possible that this animal has a very small amount of red wolf genetics. But there is almost no chance that it is entirely or even substantially red wolf. The main threat to red wolves that led USFWS in the 1970's to trap all remaining wild individuals in Texas was interbreeding with coyotes. As coyote numbers increased and red wolf populations decreased, wolves and coyotes began interbreeding. There were many many more coyotes than wolves however and genetic material from any remaining wolves has long been diluted by coyotes. There has not been a confirmed red wolf in Texas since USFWS declared it extinct in the wild in 1980.

Second, there is a recent study about a few coyotes in Galveston Island with significant amounts of wolf genetics. The authors suspect this is because the island is isolated and prevented the wolf genetics from being diluted by the same large population of coyotes found on the mainland.

Third, Texas Parks and Wildlife regularly receives reports of large coyotes from East Texas. It is certainly possible that some of these animals are exhibiting traits from some highly diluted red wolf genetics.

Finally, if you'd like to learn more about the history of red wolves in Texas, there is an excellent article about them in the TPWD Magazine by Russell Roe: https://tpwmagazine.com/archive/2012/dec/LLL_redwolf "

[PondPopper]

The guy That took the pictures and posted it on FB is not an expert on red wolves, or any wildlife. He rescues and studies domestic dogs. He thought the animal looked different, so he contacted USFWS. TPWD’s Mammalogist responded today. See below. Many coyotes have red wolf genes in them, some just express those traits more than others.
From FB:
Texas Wildlife Diversity Program - Texas Parks and Wildlife Dept
From TPWD Mammologist Jonah Evans:

"Many of you have probably seen this post going around that reports a possible red wolf found in the Dallas area. We've received numerous questions about it and would like to offer a few points to help clear up any confusion.

First, it is very possible that this animal has a very small amount of red wolf genetics. But there is almost no chance that it is entirely or even substantially red wolf. The main threat to red wolves that led USFWS in the 1970's to trap all remaining wild individuals in Texas was interbreeding with coyotes. As coyote numbers increased and red wolf populations decreased, wolves and coyotes began interbreeding. There were many many more coyotes than wolves however and genetic material from any remaining wolves has long been diluted by coyotes. There has not been a confirmed red wolf in Texas since USFWS declared it extinct in the wild in 1980.

Second, there is a recent study about a few coyotes in Galveston Island with significant amounts of wolf genetics. The authors suspect this is because the island is isolated and prevented the wolf genetics from being diluted by the same large population of coyotes found on the mainland.

Third, Texas Parks and Wildlife regularly receives reports of large coyotes from East Texas. It is certainly possible that some of these animals are exhibiting traits from some highly diluted red wolf genetics.

Finally, if you'd like to learn more about the history of red wolves in Texas, there is an excellent article about them in the TPWD Magazine by Russell Roe: https://tpwmagazine.com/archive/2012/dec/LLL_redwolf "

My argument/question is that if they are so "highly diluted" why do they look exactly like Red Wolves and not more like coyotes?? That doesn't happen in anything that is "highly diluted".. The hard fact is that some DO look more like a wolf than a coyote in every way.. Their argument sounds good but make 0 sense at all.. Common sense that is...

The second sentence in the second paragraph says "there is ALMOST no chance"... That tells me there is a possibility that there are still some out there and TPWD knows this..

[Thumper]

They're endangered and protected

Probably why it escaped.

Off topic: Fishing I fowl hooked a Cormorant and was trying to get the hook free a little rough. Was told they were protected and had to stop and then take the bird to a vet to get the hook out. The line broke, opps there goes your evidence.

[Playa]

My argument/question is that if they are so "highly diluted" why do they look exactly like Red Wolves and not more like coyotes?? That doesn't happen in anything that is "highly diluted".. The hard fact is that some DO look more like a wolf than a coyote in every way.. Their argument sounds good but make 0 sense at all.. Common sense that is...

The second sentence in the second paragraph says "there is ALMOST no chance"... That tells me there is a possibility that there are still some out there and TPWD knows this..

It makes as much sense as asserting that a species consisting of no known specimen and prone to interbreeding could somehow persist as a pure or mostly pure strain after decades

[Jspradley]

New evidence seems to point to red wolves all being hybrids in the first place.

[mudkat]

I don't think anyone on here is saying they are pure red wolves either, they all have coyote in them but certain areas have way more wolf blood in the population.
And I did read somewhere they thought red wolves were coyote /gray wolf crosses to start with.
my place has a four color phases of coyote/wolf , regular coyote color, almost completely red with a white belly( very pretty ),ones with a lot of black in patches like the one in the photo, and completely black ones. And I have seen multiple in these colors not just one individual.

[El General]

My argument/question is that if they are so "highly diluted" why do they look exactly like Red Wolves and not more like coyotes?? That doesn't happen in anything that is "highly diluted".. The hard fact is that some DO look more like a wolf than a coyote in every way.. Their argument sounds good but make 0 sense at all.. Common sense that is...

The second sentence in the second paragraph says "there is ALMOST no chance"... That tells me there is a possibility that there are still some out there and TPWD knows this..

Actually, it does. How many kids do you know that looks a whole lot like one parent or that looks like neither parent but looks like their grandfather?

And, of course, the opposite is true. There are many species that look vastly different from area to area that are all genetically the same species (grey squirrels, black bears, white tail deer, etc).

My theory is that red wolf phenotypes are showing out in coyotes as an response to a lack of a larger predator in these areas. They are simply filling a niche, and with some success it seems.

[PondPopper]

Actually, it does. How many kids do you know that looks a whole lot like one parent or that looks like neither parent but looks like their grandfather?

And, of course, the opposite is true. There are many species that look vastly different from area to area that are all genetically the same species (grey squirrels, black bears, white tail deer, etc).

My theory is that red wolf phenotypes are showing out in coyotes as an response to a lack of a larger predator in these areas. They are simply filling a niche, and with some success it seems.

Comparing children who are half and half to a wolf/coyote hybrid doesn't work. Hers why..
For that to be a good comparison then a full blood red wolf would half to breed with a full blood coyote.. Then yes..
These folks are talking that a very small percentage of Red Wolf blood still actually exists.. After all the argument is that they have been extinct for 40+ years..
I find it impossible to believe that a species could be extinct for that long and yet it's genetic make up still be so DOMINANT and traits so dominant that yet today animals are still being seen, trapped and killed that look exactly like the"extinct" species.. It's just not possible...
I always tend to believe what I actually see and not what I'm told..

[PondPopper]

It makes as much sense as asserting that a species consisting of no known specimen and prone to interbreeding could somehow persist as a pure or mostly pure strain after decades

No known species??

[Playa]

No known species??

Read that again, “no known specimen” (in the wild)

[Playa]

Comparing children who are half and half to a wolf/coyote hybrid doesn't work. Hers why..
For that to be a good comparison then a full blood red wolf would half to breed with a full blood coyote.. Then yes..
These folks are talking that a very small percentage of Red Wolf blood still actually exists.. After all the argument is that they have been extinct for 40+ years..
I find it impossible to believe that a species could be extinct for that long and yet it's genetic make up still be so DOMINANT and traits so dominant that yet today animals are still being seen, trapped and killed that look exactly like the"extinct" species.. It's just not possible...
I always tend to believe what I actually see and not what I'm told..

Genetics is a little more complicated than what you see. I have no blue eyed family members in my immediate or relatively distant family. My wife has no blue eyes in her immediate, though her granddad had blue eyes, and yet I have 3 blue eyed children. For what we reason that recessive trait on both sides expressed itself across my offspring

[Tuffbroadhead]

I spoke with the fella and he has good intentions even though it's a shot in the dark, all you have to do is a quick search online and find a ton of data on the subject.
Numbers alone speak volumes 400 trapped and only 17 were found to be pure genetic red wolves and were shipped to the East coast for a captive breeding program to save the species.

I posted 2 pictures to the thread and ended up with US fish and game calling me asking what areas they came from, I gladly told them.

Cool story about critters that are extinct in the wild.

[Bluesman]

https://tpwmagazine.com/archive/2012/dec/LLL_redwolf/

Sorry if this article was mentioned earlier.
The Red Wolf debate was on TBH a long time ago.
I remember the Game Warden in Labette County Kansas always would ask if Hunters had seen large coyotes with dark ears.