Pray for the truth, so many false prophets today and they are in the pulpits today as they have always been.
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TBH needs a 'like' button. Since they don't have one, I'll just tell you that I like this response!Originally posted by Playa View PostComment
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Church is not about us. It is about God. The church is not a building, as many have said, but that is where Christians today assemble. Churches will always have problems and are not perfect. They are filled with sinners. Jesus never told us which of his commands we can choose to disobey. We will all have to give an account for what we have done to him.
Excellent discussion. Thanks OPComment
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The problem with churches is they are too often based on religion, not relationship. Just like this thread there are always those who want to think they are the right kind of Christian and everyone else who doesn't do it their way is going to hell. Life is pita enough to put up with that kind of misery when you go to church.
And no one has the answers for those people that just don't fit in. Who can't sit in a pew shoulder to shoulder with people. Who can't answer an alter call because of social anxiety. Who for whatever psychological reason cannot force themselves to the social gathering that is public worship.
It's not mine to judge their relationship with The Lord. It's not mine to put them in heaven or hell.
Every religious sect out there thinks they have the answer. Christians, Jews, Muslims etc. We are all convinced we know the secret.
And that's great for you. But it isn't for everybody.
There are lots of good ministering churches out there. If it weren't for churches the gospel wouldn't be spread across the globe. Bibles wouldn't be delivered to China or Laos. Clean water and shelter wouldn't be brought to many in third world countries. The love, giving and charity brought to the world through churches is undeniably the work of God's hand through his people.
And that takes donations and time given by those people of those churches.
But when we have to move from a perfectly good building in an older part of town into the nice suburban hood and spend those funds on a 6 or 7 million dollar facility I just don't see how that is a wise use of the resource. I only see how it makes us feel better on Sunday.
That's where I see a lot of separation coming. If I wanna pay $500 a month to the building fund for a place I wanna be it sure isn't going to be the new church building.
I see you at the ranch.
GaryComment
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You make some great points and, ultimately, I think God knows what's in our heart. That being said, those that disagree with your perspective are entitled to their opinion and that opposing view doesn't make them a "biblethumper" or "holy roller". IMO, there is value and a calling to worship with our brothers and sisters in church on Sundays. However, if that isn't for you...that's your call. God calls us to love each other, not judge each other.Originally posted by DRT View PostComment
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Gary, I appreciate your thoughts and perspective. I'm sure most folks agree that it's bad to see a church spending money on unnecessary or "showy" feel-good stuff. And that does happen sometimes, unfortunately. But sometimes spending money on a new building or on a big remodel or whatever is a wise use of funds. Even in those circumstances, there are always some folks who will have a critical view of the spending too.Originally posted by DRT View Post
I am currently serving as an elder in my church. Before that, I was a deacon and served in the administrative area handling the budget, among other things. Our church was built over 50 years ago in what was then a pasture out past the southern edge of Abilene. The elders back then spent money to build a new building and move to where the suburbs were expected to grow and expand. I wasn't around then, obviously. But I am certain that there were some people who criticized their spending and thought that the old and smaller building in the older part of town was just fine.
Well, the Lord was apparently guiding those leaders to move and build. Today, that old mesquite pasture is pretty much in the middle of town. The congregation is now over 1,000 members, and we have folks from all parts of Abilene and a few of the nearby surrounding communities as well. The old building is still standing, but it's now vacant. It remained in use up until a few years ago. But being so small, it just couldn't serve enough people. Once things start getting old and deteriorating and needing repair and replacement, it gets very expensive. With a dwindling number of people in the church, it gets to the point where it's impossible to pay for the upkeep. And so it's now vacant.
Meanwhile, our church has grown, and we've added on a few times. Parts of the building are just a few years old, but other parts are getting very old. We are having to spend a LOT of money on repair and upkeep in those older parts of the building. We don't have any plans to move. But we definitely have some major remodel work that needs to be done before long. It's gonna cost a lot of money when we do it. If we don't do it, then our building will decay. When that starts to happen, people start looking for other churches. It starts to snowball on you eventually, and then you're in the situation where you don't have enough people to be able to afford the upkeep of your old, rundown building.
There's now a new Wal-Mart sitting on the corner of Ambler and Grape St. here in Abilene. Up until a year or so ago, that corner had a huge Baptist church on it. It used to be one of the biggest churches in town. As their membership started to decline though, their building began to deteriorate badly. As it got in worse and worse shape, more and more people stopped going. I'm sure there were multiple other reasons for their membership decline. It wasn't just the bulding issues. But anyway, you get the point. Now that church doesn't exist anymore.
It does take money. It's a difficult thing to always know what good stewardship means for your church. Most church leaders really struggle with that. Finding the right balance to responsibly take care of what the Lord has blessed us with while also looking for opportunities to branch out and impact more people for the Lord isn't always easy to figure out. Sometimes we get it wrong. No question. But the vast majority of church leaders really are trying to get it right.
God bless you, brother.!Comment
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And when we do get to do some major renovations, I'm sure a few people will want to bend my ear about the extravagent spending.
Comment
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I'm not saying stay in an old delopitated building. And most of us, if we could afford it, would get a bigger house as our family grows. But 30+ feet vaulted ceilings create an environment that is expensive to heat and cool. The need for televisions so you can see the preacher prancing around doing his thing even when you are further back in the pews. Now the closed captioning of the hymns is nice.
I was raised baptist. Went to the church of the Nazarene and church of God for long periods. Went through the Catholic RCIA and currently go with my wife when I go. But honestly it got where none of them move me. It becomes blah blah blah. I've read, I've studied and I've prayed and I'm convinced there are just not clear answers for many things. When I was young my faith was black and white. Now I realize, like much of life, the lines get blurred and the gray area gets bigger.
GaryComment
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Gary, when you find a place where you can get involved in some way that truly helps others, you'll know you found the right place for you. I know, for me, whenever I have been in a church and didn't find a way to serve in some way then it definitely felt colder, and I started to focus on all the details and what was wrong with this and that. I get it.
But when I finally found a place to get involved and serve other people, alongside other folks in the church, I started to make connections and build relationships and feel like I had a purpose for being there. All the little annoyances about some of the things that I would have done differently if I were in charge stopped mattering so much to me. It felt more like home then. I was getting so much out of being involved in service that I stopped caring so much about what the church was or wasn't doing for me (if that makes any sense).
I pray your continued search for that place for you is a successful one soon. It sounds like you definitely have a heart for it. I'm sure you'll find the right spot.Comment
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Great point Shane. But honestly, most people in church, aren't the kind of people that can understand or tolerate an individual like me. Nor me them. Even when I'm doing or giving there seems to be an uneasiness in it. And it is probably all on me. They probably don't feel that way. But to me it's definitely my environment. Like a fish out of water. And when you're that uncomfortable, you're not worshiping. Your not enjoying an experience with Jesus or the congregation. You're just wishing it were over and you could go home. And I've found my place. It's called the great outdoors.Comment
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There was once a guy that was at home in the great outdoors and didn't like church people, and he found a way to do all kinds of good out there, and Jesus thought pretty highly of him too.Originally posted by DRT View Post
Matthew 3:1 In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea 2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” 3 This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:
“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’ ”
4 John’s clothes were made of camel’s hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey. 5 People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. 6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
11 “I baptize you withb water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you withc the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
The Baptism of Jesus
13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.
16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”Comment
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