FOC does it matter

[Wac M Trac M]

KE is missing. You got lighter and heavier arrows but without KE it's all irrelevant. I've learned with my setups there is a sweet spot where speed and weight produce better KE and FOC doesn't change it much. A fast lighter arrow can get more penetration then a slow heavy one. Then it'll be flatter and more forgiving if you misjudge distance a bit.

[bphillips]

KE is missing. You got lighter and heavier arrows but without KE it's all irrelevant. I've learned with my setups there is a sweet spot where speed and weight produce better KE and FOC doesn't change it much. A fast lighter arrow can get more penetration then a slow heavy one. Then it'll be flatter and more forgiving if you misjudge distance a bit.

Without momentum its irrelevant and you won't get heavy enough to get diminishing returns there you just have to find what kind of trajectory you're comfortable with. Out of the same bow at the same specs you won't get your light arrows to out penetrate your heavier ones.

[tradslam]

bphillips, agreed light ones wont out penetrate heavy ones.

[bphillips]

bphillips, agreed light ones wont out penetrate heavy ones.

That said I'm a 430-500gr guy and don't pay attention or care about FOC unless I'm chasing dangerous game or just get bored and want to play around with something different. MIGHT consider something specific for a big moose too but that's about it.

[tradslam]

Same here, I like having a zero to 40 pin when elk hunting, incase things happen fast.

[enewman]

KE is missing. You got lighter and heavier arrows but without KE it's all irrelevant. I've learned with my setups there is a sweet spot where speed and weight produce better KE and FOC doesn't change it much. A fast lighter arrow can get more penetration then a slow heavy one. Then it'll be flatter and more forgiving if you misjudge distance a bit.

Like bphillips stated its momentum not K.e.

K.e. Is energy that is applied to,the arrow when shot. It means nothing for killing. F you take two bows all set up,same. But one bow is 85 K.el and the other is 90 K.e. Then the 90 bow is predicting more energy into the arrow.

Once the arrow is shot and moving Foward you have momentum. Theis is force. Force is what does the killing. As you go up in arrow weight K.e. Will increase. Depending on cam it may increase a good amount or it may be a slow increase. But it will never be less then the starting arrow weight. But momentum. (killing force) will increase alot.

Now does increase ping the foc effect this. Yes it does. How because only way to increase foc is to chage the weight on the shaft. Most of the time it's done by increasing tip weight. So this means arrow weight goes up. So momentum goes up

Now on the lighter arrow. It will never out penetrate except for targets. But live animals. Never. The judging distance has always been the comment made from all light arrow shooters. It's there only excuse for shooting them. For me that's why I have a range finder.

[tradtiger]

I accept a limitation of 25 yards, really, more like 20 yards to shoot my trad bow with heavy arrows -- or any other kind, actually. If I wanted to shoot longer range, I would pull out the .30-'06.

Not to hijack, but how far do you compound brethren feel is a reasonable distance to expect to be able to shoot at game? Some have mentioned up to 90 yards, I believe. Who has tried and tuned heavy arrows in compounds, and what distance do you think you would need to limit shots to in order to be consistent?

[haas0311]

I accept a limitation of 25 yards, really, more like 20 yards to shoot my trad bow with heavy arrows -- or any other kind, actually. If I wanted to shoot longer range, I would pull out the .30-'06.



Not to hijack, but how far do you compound brethren feel is a reasonable distance to expect to be able to shoot at game? Some have mentioned up to 90 yards, I believe. Who has tried and tuned heavy arrows in compounds, and what distance do you think you would need to limit shots to in order to be consistent?

In all honesty, that question is for the individual compound shooters.. Whatever their comfort level and ability I guess.. Me personally, I'm comfortable out to 45-50 yards with my 530 gr, 17% FOC set-up. For consistency, I'd say 40 yards solid with that setup putting arrows in a Copenhagen can!


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[tradtiger]

Impressive, Haas!

[Rat]

I accept a limitation of 25 yards, really, more like 20 yards to shoot my trad bow with heavy arrows -- or any other kind, actually. If I wanted to shoot longer range, I would pull out the .30-'06.

Not to hijack, but how far do you compound brethren feel is a reasonable distance to expect to be able to shoot at game? Some have mentioned up to 90 yards, I believe. Who has tried and tuned heavy arrows in compounds, and what distance do you think you would need to limit shots to in order to be consistent?

I read a study a few years ago that had the average distance of archery killed deer at 17 yards; which was down from the previous study years. This was just for Texas.

The maximum effective range will be different for each archer and even that will be dependent on the animal's body language and weather conditions.

If everything is perfect I can group broadheads in about a 6" group at 80 yards; most shots in the field are probably max of 30-35 yards for me. Unless I'm at a high pressure area (like Granger) then they can stretch out a bit.

A bow hunter sees how close he can get to his target and hit it, an archer sees how far he can get away from his target and still hit it.

At home I'm an archer, in the field I'm a bow hunter.

[tradtiger]

Thoughtful distinction, Rat, between target archer and animal bowhunter. Is there a balance to be struck between arrow weight and acceptable flight trajectory-- and how does FOC factor in the mix? Mudslinger, in post 44 above, tells us that his accuracy -- and, therefore, confidence -- INCREASED on shots over 40 yards when he went to a 560 grain arrow. The OP's initial post shows a chart where the lightest arrow of the bunch (albeit 620 grains) but with Ultra Extreme FOC of 31.9% out-penetrates arrows up to 100 grains heavier but having lower FOC.

So, it looks like there is little to be lost in accuracy from heavier, higher FOC, arrows, but much to be gained in penetration, which should yield deadlier shot results for hunters.

[Rat]

Thoughtful distinction, Rat, between target archer and animal bowhunter. Is there a balance to be struck between arrow weight and acceptable flight trajectory-- and how does FOC factor in the mix? Mudslinger, in post 44 above, tells us that his accuracy -- and, therefore, confidence -- INCREASED on shots over 40 yards when he went to a 560 grain arrow. The OP's initial post shows a chart where the lightest arrow of the bunch (albeit 620 grains) but with Ultra Extreme FOC of 31.9% out-penetrates arrows up to 100 grains heavier but having lower FOC.

So, it looks like there is little to be lost in accuracy from heavier, higher FOC, arrows, but much to be gained in penetration, which should yield deadlier shot results for hunters.

Balancing trajectory, weight and FOC: Yes, there is a balance to be struck, but it is largely in the mind of the archer. When building arrows I like to use an old golf technique; start at the end and work your way back.

When building an arrow I start with what I want out of the arrow for the species I am hunting or for the targets I am shooting.

For 3D I want a light fast arrow to make up for misjudges distances on targets of unknown yardage. So I will build an arrow in the range of 10-12% FOC at weight that will get me to 280 FPS (speed limit).

For FITA I build an arrow with 15-20% FOC with smaller vanes/feathers for the 90meter shots (more FOC means greater long range accuracy).

For hunting I build an FOC of 20-25% in the 500+ weight range with small feathers/vanes (more FOC means greater penetration, higher weight means less bow noise).

The TOTAL WEIGHT of the arrow has more to do with the trajectory than the amount of FOC.
Watch this video:
POI and FOC/total arrow weight

This is isn't a very good apples to apples comparison because the arrow weight increases each time; but even so, there is only a 4" difference in POI between a 100 gr tip and a 315 gr tip @ 35 yards. Again, many people will say that high FOC "hits a wall and then drops" but this has NEVER been shown in scientific studies of arrow ballistics.

Arrow trajectory is largely a thing in our minds that needs to be overcome; in reality, it is what it is. Every arrow has a ballistic curve and we need to learn what that is in order to make the tight shots; that is not specific to high FOC arrows, but all arrows (and bullets for that matter). I think it stems from an "I want to shoot as flat as I can" mentality which is fine for 3D, but for hunting I want to be as accurate and have as good penetration as possible; and higher FOC is better on both counts (especially accuracy at distance).

So, it looks like there is little to be lost in accuracy from heavier, higher FOC, arrows, but much to be gained in penetration, which should yield deadlier shot results for hunters.

Not only is nothing lost as far as accuracy, but time and time again higher FOC is MORE accurate in tests and has MUCH greater penetration (as you noted). Furthermore, we can use smaller steerage on the arrow with higher FOC which dramatically reduces the drag coefficient and brings the two arrow's (high FOC and low FOC) POI and ballistic curve even closer.

To answer your questions, yes, there is a balance to be struck between trajectory, weight and FOC depending on what you are doing with the arrow.

For a normal (whitetail and hog) hunter, he would be well served with an arrow that is higher FOC (20% or greater), heavier (less bow noise) and with less steerage (less drag coefficient and noise in flight). This will increase both penetration and long distance accuracy with just a slightly (4" at 35 yards as in the video) greater arrow trajectory. That, coupled with a good bone breaking broadhead of two or four blade design, will greatly reduce the number of long blood trails and lost or wounded animals for hunters.

If I were hunting Elk (or something larger), the arrow would be slightly different yet again.

[tradtiger]

Good info here, Rat, and nice specifics for varying shooting applications. Some may not realize that "less steerage" refers to smaller fletchings -- like 2-1/2" long -- to lower the drag coefficient.

Also, pretty neat video, showing only 4" of drop at 35 yards for an arrow with a 315-grain tip, when shot out of a 70-lb compound. (100-grain was spot on.) Should be easy to adjust sights for that small a difference.

[Bisch]

FOC does it matter

I'm a trad shooter also, but I am a firm believer in FOC being a good thing! I went to higher FOC arrows when carbons became the rage. I kept away from carbon shafts for a long time because I could not get a total arrow weight I felt was acceptable for hunting. Then they started producing heavier heads and inserts, and that became the easy way to up your arrow weight with carbon shafts, and it upped my FOC (although I knew nothing about FOC at re time). I have observed thru personal experience shooting critters that the higher FOC arrows penetrate better. I recently switched to Easron FMJ shafts, and my finished arrows are 20.7%FOC. The small diameter of the FMJ's coupled with the higher FOC has resulted in even better actual hunting penetration.

Bisch

[Rat]

You bring up a good point about Mudslinger and confidence.

The one thing you can't buy for your bow is confidence. And, to me anyway, the best way to build confidence into your system is through understanding what is happening and having some modicum of control over how it operates.

Take high FOC for example. I am confident in my high FOC arrows, I KNOW they penetrate well, I KNOW they are accurate, I KNOW they fly well; this, to me, is confidence.

I KNOW if I need to take that slightly quartering toward me shot I can confidently blow through the shoulder and get to the vitals of the animal, be it hog or deer.

I KNOW that I can take that animal out at 45 yards.

I am confident in my system because I have built my strings, tuned my bow, built my arrows, tuned my form... When something goes wrong I KNOW what it is and I have the skills to correct it right then and there. I have confidence in my abilities from start to finish.

Now, I am not saying that everyone should have this level of involvement in their gear, but for me it is very satisfying. Someone else can have confidence in their pro shop and how they tune their equipment, or confidence in how their guy builds their arrows, like Muddyfuzzy.

What I am saying is, knowing and understanding the basics of how your equipment, and you, operate, and having some kind of input into the building and tuning of that equipment, goes a looooong way into building confidence for a shooter. Understanding FOC and how it relates to your arrow build is just one step in building confidence into your shooting; but it is one that pays the greatest dividends.