Force fetch or not?

[Storm]

So I have a 9 month old silver lab male that I'm training for dove/duck season. I'm to the point now where I need to force fetch train him and e collar train him, and I'm trying to decide if I really need to force fetch train him. I've heard of guys ruining their dog if they don't do something right or put to much pressure in the dog. Listed below are the things my pup has already done:

He knows sit, stay, heel (sitting next to me on my left side), still working on walking at heel, come, place, kennel, he's been gun trained, had pigeons shot over him, knows how to trail downed birds, and knows what decoys are.

As of this past weekend when he's off leash doing retrieves in the water I've noticed he sometimes drops the bumper at the waters edge and then wants to go swim instead of come back to me with it. If he's on his check cord, every once in a while he'll drop the bumper when he gets to land and shake off, then pick it back up and run back to me.

My question is, does he really need force fetch training? Will just introducing him to the e collar work instead?

I'm brand new into dog training, but I'm pretty proud of what I've accomplished and what he has as well. He's got a great drive and runs hard. There's no doubt in my mind he'll be a great bird dog with a few seasons under his belt.

I really appreciate the help green screen!

Thanks,
Brandon

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You answered your own problem you never finished the basics (heel while walking, here, sit and kennel). Those should be solid before going into a formal retrieve, at least to make it enjoyable on a hunt. Finish that up then work on the sloppy mouth and playing around. You don't need a collar but you better be doing some tennis shoe traing if he does some thing wrong. Tennis shoe train g that your running to to the dog and correcting him right then and there on land and in water. The longer you let it go the harder it will be to get him where you need him.
This comes from being a trainer for a number of years.

[Smart]

Force fetch is a must in my book and I agree with Storm above...... You need to clean up and sharpen the basic obedience.

Also....you don't need 20 commands for basic. Keep it simple. Here.....Sit.....Heel....Kennel.....and send him/her using their name. When you have him sit or heel.....he should be taught to stay using those commands. Stay is just an added command for a disobedient dog in my book.

I trained and force fetched my labs. My last one, Abby, was my best dog. I need to get another one soon but just need to find the time and motivation to dedicate to training.

[Quackerbox]

Ive seen some amazing dogs who weren't. Ive also seen some dogs with 19 kinds of titles totally **** the bed when birds started working. That said I know I felt 10x better when folks praised my dog that I trained. As mentioned some dogs will get a lot naturally and experience helps a TON

[Storm]

I would like to do 100 % of the training on my own. I don't have the money to send him to a trainer. If I did I would send him to a trainer for both parts.

It sounds like force fetch is a must though. I guess I need to really read up on it and give it a go.

If you need some help I'm more than willing to teach you.

[mjbtexas]

read "water dog" by richard wolters.

[Uncle Saggy]

No! Just my $.02!!

Agree


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[txdukklr]

force fetch is a must and a collar is great

but i'd send the dog to a pro. . . . . too much you can mess up

[Pushbutton2]

Force fetch or not?

I would collar condition him first.
Part of the force fetch program uses the collar to reinforce the "Fetch" command.

Part of the collar conditioning program is "HERE".
Reinforce "HERE" if he stops at waters edge.

Here's what I did when my dogs did the same thing yours is doing. About the time the stop swimming and staring walking on the water give the coin and, not suggestion, "HERE". Be ready for him to stop at the waters edge if he does say here in your happy voice. If he stops walk backwards away from him, saying here here here in your good boy voice. You're tapping into his desire to be with you.
The crucial part is timing. This needs to be done BEFORE he drops the bumper. If he drops the bumper walk over pick it up and put him in his kennel. Say nothing! If you have. Command for kennel that is ok to use. He'll know you're unhappy with him.

Another technique is when he gets to the shore walk backwards away from him w/I saying anything. He'll most likely try and catch up.

As with any training timing is critical. It can get past a hurdle or stop it dead in its tracks.

If my dogs get conflustered I'll give them a "Sit" or sit whistle. When they do it's a one big GOOD!! Or whatever you use for praise.I like to wait a few seconds quietly talking to them. Once they seem to relax and listen we start over.

[Pilgrim]

Neither force or an e collar is a must. Both can be advantageous but neither should be attempted if you don't know exactly what you're doing.

[Sleepy]

May not be a must, but you'll be better off if you have him force fetched. The way I trained my dog was sit him at an elevated position when I could work with him standing up. Use one hand for his ear and the other to hold the bumper. Using your fingernails, pinch into his ear, just enough to get a little reaction, but not so much he starts yelping. While holding pressure, command "fetch" until he grabs the dummy. As soon as he grabs it, release the pressure on his ear. Once he's got it in his mouth, put your hand under his bottom jaw and repeat "hold". At first maybe just a couple of seconds, then work your way up over time til he's holding it for 30-40 seconds. This worked well for me and he learned it quick. Some dogs may take longer to pick it up, but this method works.

Also, Smart is right. He has too many commands in his vocabulary. Keep it simple. If I tell my dog to sit, that also means stay. When I say sit, he will sit until I call him. Here, heel, sit, kennel, down, fetch are all I use. I do get vocal at times with running blinds though with using "back" and "over", but that's only when he's having an off day or too excited.

[Stolle]

Having my dog Zeke force fetched was money well spent.

[EWH]

Force fetch is the way to go but you can avoid the severity if he gains a few things naturally. How often do you play fun bumpers with him? i.e., get him excited, no heal and throwing bumpers for him to run and bring back over and over? Front yard, anywhere...If he gets more excited about retrieving (through fun bumpers) he's more likely to bring back to you so you will throw it again. Also, when he drops it pick it up and shove it back in his mouth and command hold. If he drops it on training sessions stop the work and go home. Over time he will learn the connection between loving to retrieve, holding on to it and you throwing another one. Do this now and move on to force fetch in a few months if you want to do it yourself.

Clean up the sloppiness now; walk at heal, etc.. no variance and consistency is key.

[SFAbowhunter]

Force fetch is the way to go but you can avoid the severity if he gains a few things naturally. How often do you play fun bumpers with him? i.e., get him excited, no heal and throwing bumpers for him to run and bring back over and over? Front yard, anywhere...If he gets more excited about retrieving (through fun bumpers) he's more likely to bring back to you so you will throw it again. Also, when he drops it pick it up and shove it back in his mouth and command hold. If he drops it on training sessions stop the work and go home. Over time he will learn the connection between loving to retrieve, holding on to it and you throwing another one. Do this now and move on to force fetch in a few months if you want to do it yourself.

Clean up the sloppiness now; walk at heal, etc.. no variance and consistency is key.

We mainly throw around the house a few times a week just for fun. A lot of times if he is not on his check cord he likes to play keep away. He will not drop it, but he will come to me with it. He just likes to play with it if he's not on his check cord instead of coming straight back to me.

[Aggiechick]

I force fetched one dog and have not force fetched the others, and I did not notice a difference....all my dogs retrieved to hand. Also keep something in mind, what is your end goal for your dog, do you want it to be your hunting partner, do you want to run AKC/HRC trials and go the distance, or do you want to do both.

I started out doing trials, but I realized that I do not mind if my dog would drop a bird to shake off as long as he picked it up immediately after he was done or would go around the pond and then jump in because he was smart enough to figure out that he if ran the shoreline he would get to the duck faster and not over so many logs. I just enjoyed not having to go get my birds, having a furry friend next to me, and be with someone besides my husband who is just as excited to get out in the field as I am.

Another thing to keep in mind, the pup is 9 months old..everything is still new and exciting. If the pup is playing keep away, I would suggest the same method that gonehuntin suggested. Just start walking away and making the dog follow you until it catches up with you and delivers the bird/dummy to hand.

Just mu 0.02

[SFAbowhunter]

I force fetched one dog and have not force fetched the others, and I did not notice a difference....all my dogs retrieved to hand. Also keep something in mind, what is your end goal for your dog, do you want it to be your hunting partner, do you want to run AKC/HRC trials and go the distance, or do you want to do both.

I started out doing trials, but I realized that I do not mind if my dog would drop a bird to shake off as long as he picked it up immediately after he was done or would go around the pond and then jump in because he was smart enough to figure out that he if ran the shoreline he would get to the duck faster and not over so many logs. I just enjoyed not having to go get my birds, having a furry friend next to me, and be with someone besides my husband who is just as excited to get out in the field as I am.

Another thing to keep in mind, the pup is 9 months old..everything is still new and exciting. If the pup is playing keep away, I would suggest the same method that gonehuntin suggested. Just start walking away and making the dog follow you until it catches up with you and delivers the bird/dummy to hand.

Just mu 0.02

Good points. I don't plan to run trials with him. Just going to be a hunting partner and family pet.

I'll be working on the basic heel command until he catches on. That's the only basic command he isn't quite getting yet. Hopefully, he'll catch on to that pretty quick.